[Tommy Williamsen]

On another thread, Tim Weiman wrote. "We really have never discussed what I call “Mom and Pops”: courses that were built on decent but not great properties in the Post World War 2 era and remain very affordable."


It deserves a thread. I have played Mom and Pop courses all over the country. They don't over-promise, and many are very enjoyable. I'll start with one.


I built a second home at Bryce Resort in the Virginia mountains in 1985 and retired here in 2014. It has a little ski hill and an Ed Ault course. At one time or another, Ed had either designed or done some work on almost every course in the DC area. Our golf course is a steady 3 or 4, just a cut above the average course in the country. None of the holes are terrible, and none of the holes are great. It is generally in decent condition, and the benign greens run at about 9. It is very walkable and scenic. No one would accuse it of being a very good course, but the community of retired guys that play it every day like it.


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[Ally Mcintosh]

With these courses, I feel the way to judge them is two-fold:


1. Has the architect provided an interesting routing (for the site given to them)?


2. Have they also provided an element of interest / variety in hole type (for the budget given to them)?


Both those things are key to deciding whether the course has been designed well. Much of the unseen stuff can be very important also. Style and look is less important.

[Thomas Dai]

I posted this on the other mentioned thread. Should probably have posted it here.


If you want dozens of DS1-2-3’s plus some better some substantially so then have a look at the UK courses that Smithy has been visiting and videoing - [/size]https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,70974.msg1735922.html#msg1735922[/color][/size]Atb[/color]

[Tim_Weiman]

With these courses, I feel the way to judge them is two-fold:


1. Has the architect provided an interesting routing (for the site given to them)?


2. Have they also provided an element of interest / variety in hole type (for the budget given to them)?


Both those things are key to deciding whether the course has been designed well. Much of the unseen stuff can be very important also. Style and look is less important.

Ally,


With the Mom and Pops, the most important thing is probably affordability, but most I can think of the Cleveland area certainly do have interest and a variety of holes, especially from the perspective of mid handicap golfers.

[Tim_Weiman]

Tommy,


Regarding an affordable course that maybe few have heard of, perhaps the best I have seen in recent years is  Wilmington Municipal. It is an excellent piece of land from both a soil and topography perspective.


Then, too, I think it is a course that works well for a variety of skill levels.


It has a great muni feel to it complete with a club house that feels like it is 80-100 years old and not the least bit pretentious.


Honestly, for probably 95% of golfers, Wilmington Municipal is a better course than even Bethpage Black.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I took a couple of guys from Bryce to Ballyhack, and they hated it. It was too difficult. The vast majority of players just need a course that is moderately difficult, in decent shape, and pretty. Michigan has bunches of Mom and Pop courses. My Dad really only played golf because of me. He liked golf that was cheap. I took him to Crystal Downs once, and he quit after nine holes. "It just isn't for me, Tommy."

[Sean_A]

I took a couple of guys from Bryce to Ballyhack, and they hated it. It was too difficult. The vast majority of players just need a course that is moderately difficult, in decent shape, and pretty. Michigan has bunches of Mom and Pop courses. My Dad really only played golf because of me. He liked golf that was cheap. I took him to Crystal Downs once, and he quit after nine holes. "It just isn't for me, Tommy."

You are right. Michigan is loaded with serviceable to good cheap public courses.


I used to play Leslie Park, Brae Burn, Cascades. Huron Hills, Hilltop, Tyrone Hills etc quite a bit back in the day. Many excellent holes on these courses.


Ciao

[Tommy Williamsen]

I took a couple of guys from Bryce to Ballyhack, and they hated it. It was too difficult. The vast majority of players just need a course that is moderately difficult, in decent shape, and pretty. Michigan has bunches of Mom and Pop courses. My Dad really only played golf because of me. He liked golf that was cheap. I took him to Crystal Downs once, and he quit after nine holes. "It just isn't for me, Tommy."

You are right. Michigan is loaded with serviceable to good cheap public courses.


I used to play Leslie Park, Brae Burn, Cascades. Huron Hills, Hilltop, Tyrone Hills etc quite a bit back in the day. Many excellent holes on these courses.


Ciao

Sean, my folks used to live north of Muskegon. My wife and I would play in and around there and drive north to Petoskey. We'd play White Lake GC, Old Channel Trail (fun back nine), Shelby, Antrim Dells, Ludington, Manistee, and others. We even played Wawashkamo on Mackinac Island. No one would call them great, but they were fun and certainly affordable. We'd play Boyne, etc, but they weren't affordable courses.

[Tom_Doak]

There is a difference between good "affordable courses" [there are many designed by famous architects that were just in the wrong place at the wrong time], and true mom & pop courses designed by a random guy.


Wilmington Municipal is a Donald Ross course.  It shouldn't be a surprise that it's good.


A mom and pop place is something more like Springbrook GC in Maine, designed by a local club pro, Al Biondi.  A good routing over a good rolling piece of ground.

[Joe Hancock]

Marquette Trails near Big Star Lake/ Baldwin, MI is a true M&P that has some really fun stuff on the ground. The Baloulis family built and operated for years, I assume they still do but it’s been many years since I’ve been there.


Ye Nine Olde Holes near Charlevoix is another true M&P’er that the Stadt family owns and operates. Not as interesting as Marquette Trails, but still another example of a place that is a good, affordable place to play golf.

[Dan_Callahan]

A great example of this is Bretwood Golf Course in Keene, NH. There are actually two courses on the property, the north course and the south course. My understanding is that Geoffrey Cornish designed 9 holes on each course (for what was the original 18). The owner split the course up and added his own 9 to each. You'd be hard pressed to tell which 9s were designed by a professional GCA. And taken as a whole, Bretwood might be my favorite public club in NH. It is incredibly affordable and never gets any love from the rankings. Amazing that in such a golf-crazed part of the country, it continues to fly under the radar.

[Bill Seitz]

Aren't Pinecroft and Champion Hill built on family owned land and basically designed/built by the owners?  I haven't played either because I'm usually spending my limited NW Michigan time somewhere else, but I would guess Tom and Joe maybe know more about those places.  Both with high season walking rates under $50.  They seem to get a lot of love from the Fried Egg and a lot of the Michigan contingent of No Laying Up fans.  Perhaps they weren't built in the "Post WW2 era" if that refers to a specific timespan, but definitely built after WW2.

[Ben Hollerbach]

Is the focus on affordable golf generally, Or specifically Mom and Pop run affordable golf courses, excluding municipal courses?

[Tommy Williamsen]

Is the focus on affordable golf generally, Or specifically Mom and Pop run affordable golf courses, excluding municipal courses?

When I started the thread, I meant any affordable course. TD began and deleted a Mom&Pop thread. So I guess anyway you answer it is correct.

[Michael Felton]

My guilty pleasure course is La Tourette in Staten Island NY. It's a city course and I've only ever played it very early in the season (think March). I really enjoy it. It's not exactly a mom & pop type of place, but it's affordable (by NYC standards) and good fun while still being decently challenging.


There's also Marine Park in Brooklyn (another city course), which has the wildest set of greens I think I've ever seen.

[Tommy Williamsen]

My guilty pleasure course is La Tourette in Staten Island NY. It's a city course and I've only ever played it very early in the season (think March). I really enjoy it. It's not exactly a mom & pop type of place, but it's affordable (by NYC standards) and good fun while still being decently challenging.


There's also Marine Park in Brooklyn (another city course), which has the wildest set of greens I think I've ever seen.

La Tourette was the first course I ever played. Probably 1954.

[Sean_A]

I don’t think I have a real ma and pa course in Michigan that I really liked.

These type of courses are very rare in GB&I because clubs run the show. Yet two of the best I have played are here. Otway in Donegal is a marvel of land usage. Proper ma and pa place. Pay the fee at mother’s bungalow. Farmer son takes care of the course. The other is Covesea. No house, find the wife and pay or stick money in an envelope taped to the caravan. Husband keeps the place. Just down the road from Moray so I expect its fortunes to rise.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Covesea was the UK course that came to my mind when this thread was raised. Terrific place. Only wish there were more places like it.
I suspect that there may be others particularly ones linked to adjacent driving ranges.

Atb

[Joe Zucker]

Covesea was the UK course that came to my mind when this thread was raised. Terrific place. Only wish there were more places like it.
I suspect that there may be others particularly ones linked to adjacent driving ranges.

Atb

Covesea is truly fantastic.  There are a few odd holes that may not be ideal from an "architectural" perspective and the greens are average, but it's a wonderful course and experience.  We did a day trip from Nairn out to Cullen and played Covesea on the way home and it was well worth it to get off the beaten path of top courses in the area.

[Charlie Goerges]

I don’t think I have a real ma and pa course in Michigan that I really liked.

This is pretty close to my experience in the northern half of Minnesota as well. Even for mom and pops that were designed by an architect. They just generally weren't that exciting. What I'm curious about is whether they could have been significantly better without much increase in construction cost if they'd been willing/able to find the right designer for the job?

[Tommy Williamsen]

The back nine at Old Channel Trail around Whitehall, MI, has pretty fascinating landforms around the greens. I have not seen the like anywhere else. I always found it fun. It is a Mom and Pop course for sure.

[Kalen Braley]

There's a couple of of these in Utah I've been meaning to do a course review on, interesting with cheap green fees.


Perhaps this summer.

[Bernie Bell]

Not too far from Tommy's course at Bryce is Shenvalee Golf Resort in New Market, VA.
https://www.shenvalee.com/
27 holes.  The original 9 are coming up on 100 years old, and I believe Fred Findlay was involved.  The second 18 are by Ed Ault.
Interesting history in that beautiful neck of the woods.  The other thread on "The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down" brought New Market and the Valley to my mind. 
https://www.nps.gov/articles/000/the-burning-shenandoah-valley-in-flames.htm

[Tom_Doak]

The back nine at Old Channel Trail around Whitehall, MI, has pretty fascinating landforms around the greens. I have not seen the like anywhere else. I always found it fun. It is a Mom and Pop course for sure.

That nine holes at Old Channel Trail was an early Robert Bruce Harris design -- very distinctive.  But it wasn't a homemade situation.  A few years back I had an inquiry from someone who proposed buying that place and fixing it up, but I didn't really think it needed much to change.

[Tom_Doak]

Aren't Pinecroft and Champion Hill built on family owned land and basically designed/built by the owners?  I haven't played either because I'm usually spending my limited NW Michigan time somewhere else, but I would guess Tom and Joe maybe know more about those places.  Both with high season walking rates under $50.  They seem to get a lot of love from the Fried Egg and a lot of the Michigan contingent of No Laying Up fans.  Perhaps they weren't built in the "Post WW2 era" if that refers to a specific timespan, but definitely built after WW2.

I went and walked Champion Hill during the pandemic when everything was closed.  You are correct, it's an owner-designed course, and it feels like it.  Whatever else it may be, it certainly is not designed to be easily walkable.

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