[mike_malone]

  There has to be something that has been neglected that is worth discussing?

[Tim_Weiman]

Mike,


We really have never discussed what I call “Mom and Pops”: courses that were built on decent but not great properties in the Post World War 2 era and remain very affordable.


These are courses that might not be any more than a 2 or 3 on the Doak scale, but are enjoyed many golfers who have never had exposure to the world’s great courses.


The Cleveland, Ohio area has many such courses. Markets like New York, Philadelphia or Los Angeles, the home of many great courses,  just aren’t so blessed.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Picking up on what Tim says, it would be good to discuss some of the good architecture that goes in to those courses.


Sometimes people don’t see the 90%. They just see the 10% on the top, the final look and feel.


There are some really well designed courses that on the surface have not much to recommend them; but in reality have a world more to offer than the big budget, containment mounding, monster “championship” courses that don’t deserve the column inches they get / got.

[Greg Hohman]

Mike,


We really have never discussed what I call “Mom and Pops”: courses that were built on decent but not great properties in the Post World War 2 era and remain very affordable.


These are courses that might not be any more than a 2 or 3 on the Doak scale, but are enjoyed many golfers who have never had exposure to the world’s great courses.


The Cleveland, Ohio area has many such courses. Markets like New York, Philadelphia or Los Angeles, the home of many great courses,  just aren’t so blessed.

Tim, Frosty Valley Golf Links, nine holes, south of Pittsburgh. It was Hidden Valley CC (Joe Lee, 1969). Ruffing family purchased it in 1988.

[Thomas Dai]

If you want dozens of DS1-2-3’s plus some better some substantially so then have a look at the UK courses that Smithy has been visiting and videoing - https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,70974.msg1735922.html#msg1735922
Atb

[Tim_Weiman]

Mike,


We really have never discussed what I call “Mom and Pops”: courses that were built on decent but not great properties in the Post World War 2 era and remain very affordable.


These are courses that might not be any more than a 2 or 3 on the Doak scale, but are enjoyed many golfers who have never had exposure to the world’s great courses.


The Cleveland, Ohio area has many such courses. Markets like New York, Philadelphia or Los Angeles, the home of many great courses,  just aren’t so blessed.

Tim, Frosty Valley Golf Links, nine holes, south of Pittsburgh. It was Hidden Valley CC (Joe Lee, 1969). Ruffing family purchased it in 1988.

Greg,


Pittsburgh does have some Mom and Pops, for sure, and like Cleveland has a balance that also includes courses that are highly regarded from a golf architecture perspective, obviously.


I’d say Cleveland is better in terms of the quantity of Mom and Pops.


By the way, I lived in Bethel Park for a year right out of college and did play South Park many times. Certainly good exercise!

[Ronald Montesano]

Before you guys get too into the M&Ps, create a NEW thread called MOM AND POPS.

This one should be for its purpose: what haven't we done to death.

1. Tee Markers and tee shapes.

2. Fairway height related to topography.

3. Mountain courses that don't drain well.

4. Seaside links that drain too well.

[John Handley]

Many of the golf course reviews are quite dated.  I would be interested in good conversations about specific courses from around the world by people who have played them or have researched them.


Many of us travel around playing great courses and I think most of us have a lot of perspective to offer.  For example, I am really excited to plan a trip around the Southwest part of England.  I would love to hear from guys who know St Enodoc, Trevose, Perranporth, Saunton, Royal North Devon, Burnham & Berrow, and even Royal Porthcawl.

[Joe Hancock]

Any of the threads I’ve started…..


Seriously though, the ability to captivate and intellectually engage this group with a well written thread title and a sound, well presented question, premise or other architectural observation is a gift that some have moreso than others. I, admittedly, am an *other*.

[Greg Hohman]

Mike,


We really have never discussed what I call “Mom and Pops”: courses that were built on decent but not great properties in the Post World War 2 era and remain very affordable.


These are courses that might not be any more than a 2 or 3 on the Doak scale, but are enjoyed many golfers who have never had exposure to the world’s great courses.


The Cleveland, Ohio area has many such courses. Markets like New York, Philadelphia or Los Angeles, the home of many great courses,  just aren’t so blessed.

Tim, Frosty Valley Golf Links, nine holes, south of Pittsburgh. It was Hidden Valley CC (Joe Lee, 1969). Ruffing family purchased it in 1988.

Greg,


Pittsburgh does have some Mom and Pops, for sure, and like Cleveland has a balance that also includes courses that are highly regarded from a golf architecture perspective, obviously.


I’d say Cleveland is better in terms of the quantity of Mom and Pops.


By the way, I lived in Bethel Park for a year right out of college and did play South Park many times. Certainly good exercise!

Tim, Montesano has a point (start a new thread), so I'll just concur with you that South Park is no sleep walk in the park and add that I have not played Frosty Valley. Oh, and agree with you in the book thread about Mom and Pop operations as welcome reading.

[Matt Schoolfield]

My favorite green is Pasatiempo #16... have we "beaten to death" why extreme contours are the exception and not the rule?

[Ben Hollerbach]

My favorite green is Pasatiempo #16... have we "beaten to death" why extreme contours are the exception and not the rule?

Modern green speeds often make extreme contours unputtable?

[Brian Finn]

Many of the golf course reviews are quite dated.  I would be interested in good conversations about specific courses from around the world by people who have played them or have researched them.

Many of us travel around playing great courses and I think most of us have a lot of perspective to offer.  For example, I am really excited to plan a trip around the Southwest part of England.  I would love to hear from guys who know St Enodoc, Trevose, Perranporth, Saunton, Royal North Devon, Burnham & Berrow, and even Royal Porthcawl.

I'd highly recommend you start here:  https://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/sean-arbles-united-kingdom-course-tours-2/

Sean has crafted some really terrific course tours (which he updates year after year when revisiting courses) and most of the threads have pretty good discussion from others.  I have used his tours when researching many of my own trips, including to SW England.  Beyond the likely names, you may also discover additional courses to visit in a region, as I did with West Cornwall and Bude & North Cornwall, for example.  Additionally, while the search function is far from optimal, it does work, and there are other good threads on practically any course you may ever consider.

[John Kirk]

To further the discussion, what needs to be done is a detailed survey of the types of shots typically encountered while playing golf.  I envision a 100-200 question survey where the participant is asked about various shots.  For each scenario, the participant is asked 1) the perceived difficulty of the shot, and 2) how much they enjoy the challenge of the shot.

For instance...

1.  A straight, 10 foot steeply downhill putt.
2.  A 10 foot steeply downhill putt with 1-4" break to the left, depending on speed.
3.  An uphill drive (blind) over a ridge 150 yards from the tee.
4.  A fairway bunker shot with a slightly uphill lie and a tall lip or embankment requiring a lofted shot.

...and so on.  It would be rather easy to write down 250 common scenarios.  You really need data to find out what people really like and how difficult certain shots are perceived, as well as other general observations about how people respond to the exercise.

 

[Tim_Weiman]

My favorite green is Pasatiempo #16... have we "beaten to death" why extreme contours are the exception and not the rule?

Matt,


Pretty special hole. To your question, I would say no. Not at all.

[Ally Mcintosh]

My favorite green is Pasatiempo #16... have we "beaten to death" why extreme contours are the exception and not the rule?

Matt,


Pretty special hole. To your question, I would say no. Not at all.

It’s a pretty easy answer though: Extreme contours are really hard to maintain good - or at least consistent - grass on.


There are other more nuanced factors as well. But that is the main one.

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