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Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
When is there too much going on?
« on: February 07, 2024, 05:29:54 PM »
Looking at some of the before and after pictures in the article on Citrus Farms makes me ask?[/font]
A Noted Skeptic's First Look at The Karoo at Cabot Citrus Farms[/font]
When is there too much going on: too much undulation? Too much sand? Too many options? When is there just too much stuff, and the architect is just showing off?[/font]
I am not saying that about CF. I haven’t been there. But it did cause me to ask the question.[/font]
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Edward Glidewell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When is there too much going on?
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2024, 05:47:45 PM »
I had a similar reaction to some of the photos -- I've also seen a couple where the original Fazio version of a hole looked like it might be better than the renovated version.


But, as you said, it's only photos. I haven't been there in person.

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When is there too much going on?
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2024, 05:51:37 PM »
Mixed feelings about this
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When is there too much going on?
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2024, 06:06:55 PM »
While I have been on the ground at Pine Valley the drone shots in the GD hole by hole could have one wondering whether too much was done there.
AKA Mayday

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When is there too much going on?
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2024, 06:16:45 PM »
I think you know it when you see it.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When is there too much going on?
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2024, 07:42:43 PM »
The original thread on this from a year ago..

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,71636.0.html

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When is there too much going on?
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2024, 08:03:06 PM »
The original thread on this from a year ago..

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,71636.0.html



Hm nothing new under the sun, I guess.

Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Bernie Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When is there too much going on?
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2024, 10:11:56 AM »
Which would likely require more maintenance time and expense, the before or the after?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: When is there too much going on?
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2024, 10:41:41 AM »
Which would likely require more maintenance time and expense, the before or the after?


I would guess "after".  You don't do much maintenance underneath trees.


Florida is not the easiest climate for this "native sand" look.  The growing season is 10+ months and for all those months the native grasses and weeds are spreading and getting thicker, so you're using Roundup to keep the sand from getting overgrown.  [Streamsong has the same issue.]  Plus there are frequent heavy rains which deliver potential washouts and make attention to drainage details extra important.  It's a lot easier to keep that look in North Carolina where the natives are dormant for a much longer period, and where dormant Bermuda requires very little maintenance.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When is there too much going on?
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2024, 01:18:40 PM »
From my (new) perspective, when several gca's look at some new course photos and suggest our next education topic be, "Designing for the next recession." :)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When is there too much going on?
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2024, 01:37:04 PM »
We are the Golf GC at Cabot and I have probably spent some part of 150 days in the last year on Kyle's course. There has been times when it felt like the stimulus meter was turned up a little high, but...
The bunkers are aging very nicely and the local sand plays beautifully. Nice and firm, but drains well. Many of the bunker type features do not require daily maintenance and most did not require modern bunker construction practices like liner, drainage or imported sand. In fact there are no liners at all on Kyle's design and all are native sand.
The maint staff is not huge, 18 staff + management, I believe and I'm not sure if they even have that many out there each day.


The course is new, and grass is still being added during this preview play period. I know its a lot to ask, but I'd suggest maybe going to see it before commenting too much on design, but I know how hard that is in this instagram world.


Jeff Brauer...would you make a comment like that is Kyle was a member of your society?  pretty shitty post IMO.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2024, 01:41:58 PM by Don Mahaffey »

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When is there too much going on?
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2024, 02:08:20 PM »
Which would likely require more maintenance time and expense, the before or the after?


I would guess "after".  You don't do much maintenance underneath trees.


Florida is not the easiest climate for this "native sand" look.  The growing season is 10+ months and for all those months the native grasses and weeds are spreading and getting thicker, so you're using Roundup to keep the sand from getting overgrown.  [Streamsong has the same issue.]  Plus there are frequent heavy rains which deliver potential washouts and make attention to drainage details extra important.  It's a lot easier to keep that look in North Carolina where the natives are dormant for a much longer period, and where dormant Bermuda requires very little maintenance.


This......
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When is there too much going on?
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2024, 02:38:09 PM »
We are the Golf GC at Cabot and I have probably spent some part of 150 days in the last year on Kyle's course. There has been times when it felt like the stimulus meter was turned up a little high, but...
The bunkers are aging very nicely and the local sand plays beautifully. Nice and firm, but drains well. Many of the bunker type features do not require daily maintenance and most did not require modern bunker construction practices like liner, drainage or imported sand. In fact there are no liners at all on Kyle's design and all are native sand.
The maint staff is not huge, 18 staff + management, I believe and I'm not sure if they even have that many out there each day.


The course is new, and grass is still being added during this preview play period. I know its a lot to ask, but I'd suggest maybe going to see it before commenting too much on design, but I know how hard that is in this instagram world.


Jeff Brauer...would you make a comment like that is Kyle was a member of your society?  pretty shitty post IMO.


Don,


It is more a theoretical comment than one aimed at Kyle or Cabot.  I talked with Mike Nuzzo recently on some other matters and I am really happy for him to get the 21 commission with you.


There are a select few courses, and these would be one of them, where you need the visual pop of massive sand or other types of visual artistic impact.  However, there are legit profession wide questions of just how much is necessary.  I am sure the redesign will spark a lot of interest and play, at least for a while.  If World Woods was struggling after an initial run of success, then I wonder if a new design is all that will be needed long term (as I would anywhere)


A lot of work for many architects in the last decade has been "sand bunker reduction" and that was my experience with nearly every course I had designed.  Sand is difficult to keep and also very costly, and combined with Tom's spot on comment about how difficult those waste bunkers have been at TPC and many other Florida courses where they have been converted to grass and/or downsized makes me wonder why this time would be different?  I believe every design struggles with the design of the "wow" factor for now and the practicality of a design long term.


I always designed for maintenance when financial times weren't so rosy, and keep going back to the Donald Ross statement that it is easy to over bunker a course.  Some architects (ASGCA and non) have wondered out loud about the same.  It's certainly a legit question, and I have spoken with other architects about whether the new generation is making similar mistakes to my generation, i.e., designing for photographic appeal and potential awards rather than the golfers who play themselves, and certainly the superintendents.


It would be hard to criticize anyone trying to build their name as an architect for doing visually great work, given I and most others did the same, but now I have seen owners who live with it and time has changed my perspective.  We recently had an education session on "thinking like an owner" and most of our panelists said reducing sand was always a top priority for them. 


So, not meant to be a crappy answer, but just a conglomeration of recent discussions and experiences I thought I might share.  This is, after all, a discussion about architecture, and the question was very pointed about overdoing things, so I answered.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2024, 02:40:07 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Worth

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When is there too much going on?
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2024, 03:45:27 PM »
Tommy I agree with your sentiment


I played the course before it was renovated and loved it. Although one cannot make final opinions based on a few still photos, stylistically this is not my thing.


Someone will correct me if this isn’t right, but was the architect here also involved with Union League National, NJ?  I see similarities, at least stylistically


A thought. I wonder if this fits in the category of the architect doing something because he can, not because he should?










Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When is there too much going on?
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2024, 08:31:24 PM »
The Super Bowl halftime show has way too much going on. There is so much it is boring.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

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