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Matt Schoolfield

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Eras and Notable Architects in those Eras
« on: February 06, 2024, 04:48:40 PM »
I am currently updating the architect section of my website, as it's horribly designed now. I am creating one sorting of architects by total number of "projects" (anything they touch, be it a full design, renovation, or some small modification), and another that is simply an alphabetical sorting by surname. Neither of these I see as a good "landing page" for golf course architects.

I would like to have a page of "prominent architects" which is simply a hard coded list of architectural eras, with the most prominent architects of their era listed. I thought about doing a bit of research, but then I thought the opinions here are probably better than my own. So, what do you all think? I'm not asking for the "best" architects, but the most prominent, but just what eras you all think exist, and who are the architects in those eras.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2024, 10:20:04 PM by Matt Schoolfield »
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Tom_Doak

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Re: How would you lay out "eras" and "notable architects" in golf history?
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2024, 05:16:03 PM »
Matt:


There is an "Architecture Timeline" as one of the features of this web site [it is found under "Courses by Country"] and it's as reasonable a take as any.  It divides architects by decades, which doesn't really work because our careers are much longer than that, but whatever.


If you want eras, there is clearly a Golden Age and a Postwar Era.  I don't have a name for the earthmoving-heavy age that featured Dye, Nicklaus and Fazio, but they were clearly the big guns from the 1970s through about 2000.  And then I don't know what you want to call the new millennium.

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: How would you lay out "eras" and "notable architects" in golf history?
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2024, 05:18:17 PM »
There is an "Architecture Timeline" as one of the features of this web site [it is found under "Courses by Country"] and it's as reasonable a take as any.
Thank you for this, even moments after posting I thought this was more "asking people to do work" than I meant it to be. Sorry for that. This is an ideal response.
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John Handley

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Re: .
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2024, 10:04:09 PM »
Matt - Well now you should feel happy since you just got some good advice from a "prominent architect"
2024 Line Up: Spanish Oaks GC, Cal Club, Cherokee Plantation, Huntercombe, West Sussex, Hankley Common, Royal St. Georges, Sunningdale New & Old, CC of the Rockies, Royal Lytham, Royal Birkdale, Formby, Royal Liverpool, Swinley Forest, St. George's Hill, Berkshire Red, Walton Heath Old, Austin GC,

Charlie Goerges

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Re: .
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2024, 10:16:34 PM »
Matt, there’s nothing wrong with this question. It’s what this board is here for.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: .
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2024, 10:26:18 PM »
Matt, there’s nothing wrong with this question. It’s what this board is here for.
Okay, fair enough. Here's what I have so far, sorted by birth year. Feel free to debate my current taxonomy and list. If I'm missing someone let me know, but this is just supposed to be a fairly simple survey, and not a definitive listing  (e.g.: David Kidd is obviously notable, but is young enough to not really be in a survey course on architecture yet). Ideally they should have an existing Wikipedia page (only missing for Bill Coore (!?!), C.K. Hutchison, and Theodore Moreau):

Golden Age:

Old Tom Morris
C.B. Macdonald
Herbert Fowler
Walter Travis
Willie Park Jr.
Tom Bendelow
Harry Colt
Alister MacKenzie
James Braid
Donald Ross
George C. Thomas Jr.
Seth Raynor
A.W. Tillinghast
C.K. Hutchison
Tom Simpson
Perry Maxwell
C.H. Alison
H. Chandler Egan
Billy Bell Sr.
William Langford
Theodore Moreau
William Flynn
Stanley Thompson

Post-war Period:

Dick Wilson
Robert Trent Jones Sr.
Pete Dye
Alice Dye
Arnold Palmer
Arthur Hills
Jay Morrish
Donald Steel
Robert Trent Jones Jr.
Jack Nicklaus
Rees Jones
Tom Weiskopf
Michael Hurdzan
Tom Fazio (not sure if current or post-war, same birth year as Bill Coore)

Current Era:

Bill Coore
Martin Hawtree
Ben Crenshaw
Greg Norman
Mike Strantz
Tom Doak
Gil Hanse
« Last Edit: February 06, 2024, 10:34:35 PM by Matt Schoolfield »
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Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Eras and Notable Architects in those Eras
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2024, 01:44:45 AM »
Matt,


Two eras missing. I would count 5:


1. Victorian (1860’s - 1900’s)
2. Golden Age (1910’s -1930’s)
3. Post-War (1940’s - 1960’s)
4. Modern (1970’s - 1990’s)
5. Renaissance (2000’s - 2020’s)



Matt Schoolfield

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Re: Eras and Notable Architects in those Eras
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2024, 02:09:34 AM »
Matt,


Two eras missing. I would count 5:


1. Victorian (1860’s - 1900’s)
2. Golden Age (1910’s -1930’s)
3. Post-War (1940’s - 1960’s)
4. Modern (1970’s - 1990’s)
5. Renaissance (2000’s - 2020’s)
I agree with this generally, thank you, but I'm grouping the architects by date of birth. Could you speculate which architects act as the cut off the different eras? I could also sort the architects by era, then by date within their era... but that seems a bit odd.

I'll be updating the wedsite soon, so I'll be able to have a live preview for you all within an hour or so.
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Matt Schoolfield

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Re: Eras and Notable Architects in those Eras
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2024, 02:43:40 AM »
Okay, for your consideration, the current layout: https://golfcourse.wiki/architects

I would like to expand it to include the Victorian and Modern Renaissance eras, but I just need to know the cutoffs, and who goes in which era. I would also like to know some more about Alice Dye. My understanding is that she was a significant part of their design company, but the number of course courses I have listed with her at least partly credited is surprisingly small.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2024, 02:45:31 AM by Matt Schoolfield »
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Sean_A

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Re: Eras and Notable Architects in those Eras
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2024, 03:50:31 AM »
Old Tom is definitely pre-golden age, whatever you call this period. It is often referred to as Victorian. You also should add Dunn to this period. Maybe Willie Fernie.

Your difficulty is not which period an archie slots into, but when periods begin and end. Hence the difficulty of cross referencing birthdays and periods. They don’t necessarily coincide.

Ciao
« Last Edit: February 07, 2024, 05:28:05 AM by Sean_A »
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Simon Barrington

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Re: Eras and Notable Architects in those Eras
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2024, 04:36:39 AM »
This may be a whole different direction, but your question and having a son who is studying History of Art got me thinking of parallels to Art movements.


I am sure far more educated and informed folk will have tried this before, so the following quick "napkin scribbles" may not be at all valid and open to great debate (I think that is what Art, Golf Architecture and this site is about?):


1. (1860’s - 1900) - Rudimentary Penalism (harsh on OTM though)
2. (1900’s -1930’s) - Strategic Enlightenment (aka "The Renaissance")
3. (1940’s - 1960’s) - Commercial Mannerism (Functional standardisation or Blandism)
4. (1970’s - 1990’s) - Visual Blatantism - The TV generation, dare one say "Augustafication"  (incl. Conceptual Surrealism - Muirhead)
5. (2000’s - 2020’s) - Naturalised Neo-Classicism (incl. Minimalism) (DMK - possibly moving to Neo-expressionism?)

What comes next (already happening)?
Pop Architecture, Digitalism & Street Art - Urban/Indoor Golf, Adventure/Crazy Golf, Simulation, Video Gamification (TopGolf), Astroturf courses, reductive short courses with high frequency action and challenge...

As Sean said above, very difficult to place individuals specifically into one or the other era/movement as many worked across periods and had many styles individually...but that creates debate and discovery...
e.g. IMHO James Braid was the clear bridge between penal and strategic (as per "Advanced Golf" 1908) kicking off the Golden Age/Enlightenment.

Good luck in your task!

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Eras and Notable Architects in those Eras
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2024, 05:04:55 AM »
This may be a whole different direction, but your question and having a son who is studying History of Art got me thinking of parallels to Art movements.


I am sure far more educated and informed folk will have tried this before, so the following quick "napkin scribbles" may not be at all valid and open to great debate (I think that is what Art, Golf Architecture and this site is about?):


1. (1860’s - 1900) - Rudimentary Penalism (harsh on OTM though)
2. (1900’s -1930’s) - Strategic Enlightenment (aka "The Renaissance")
3. (1940’s - 1960’s) - Commercial Mannerism (Functional standardisation or Blandism)
4. (1970’s - 1990’s) - Visual Blatantism - The TV generation, dare one say "Augustafication"  (incl. Conceptual Surrealism - Muirhead)
5. (2000’s - 2020’s) - Naturalised Neo-Classicism (incl. Minimalism) (DMK - possibly moving to Neo-expressionism?)

What comes next (already happening)?
Pop Architecture, Digitalism & Street Art - Urban/Indoor Golf, Adventure/Crazy Golf, Simulation, Video Gamification (TopGolf), Astroturf courses, reductive short courses with high frequency action and challenge...

As Sean said above, very difficult to place individuals specifically into one or the other era/movement as many worked across periods and had many styles individually...but that creates debate and discovery...
e.g. IMHO James Braid was the clear bridge between penal and strategic (as per "Advanced Golf" 1908) kicking off the Golden Age/Enlightenment.

Good luck in your task!


Simon -- I think Willie Park was at least as clear a bridge between penal and strategic. If you look at his original Sunningdale and Huntercombe from 1900, it is clear that he got strategy but couldn't, at least at that time, make the leap to naturalism that Colt, principally, pioneered.


Matt -- I think you should certainly add John Morrison to your golden age list. It is hard to separate his oeuvre from that of his boss, Colt, because unlike Hugh Alison, he didn't spend as much time on his own. But his work in Europe, especially Germany, proves his ability, and there's no doubt that he was responsible for quite a lot of the 20s/30s Colt & Co work -- he was the point man for the reconstruction of Lytham before the course hosted its first Open in 1926, for example.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Eras and Notable Architects in those Eras
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2024, 05:15:49 AM »
Another aspect would be those who assisted notable architects, not just architecture wise but construction site wise too particularly as some notable architects didn’t visit courses under construction very often if at all.
Atb

Sean_A

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Re: Eras and Notable Architects in those Eras
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2024, 05:18:52 AM »
This may be a whole different direction, but your question and having a son who is studying History of Art got me thinking of parallels to Art movements.


I am sure far more educated and informed folk will have tried this before, so the following quick "napkin scribbles" may not be at all valid and open to great debate (I think that is what Art, Golf Architecture and this site is about?):


1. (1860’s - 1900) - Rudimentary Penalism (harsh on OTM though)
2. (1900’s -1930’s) - Strategic Enlightenment (aka "The Renaissance")
3. (1940’s - 1960’s) - Commercial Mannerism (Functional standardisation or Blandism)
4. (1970’s - 1990’s) - Visual Blatantism - The TV generation, dare one say "Augustafication"  (incl. Conceptual Surrealism - Muirhead)
5. (2000’s - 2020’s) - Naturalised Neo-Classicism (incl. Minimalism) (DMK - possibly moving to Neo-expressionism?)

What comes next (already happening)?
Pop Architecture, Digitalism & Street Art - Urban/Indoor Golf, Adventure/Crazy Golf, Simulation, Video Gamification (TopGolf), Astroturf courses, reductive short courses with high frequency action and challenge...

As Sean said above, very difficult to place individuals specifically into one or the other era/movement as many worked across periods and had many styles individually...but that creates debate and discovery...
e.g. IMHO James Braid was the clear bridge between penal and strategic (as per "Advanced Golf" 1908) kicking off the Golden Age/Enlightenment.

Good luck in your task!


I think of Park Jr as the main bridge between Victorian and Golden Age. Fowler also fits the tagline to some degree.

Braid is an interesting case. He was often brought in for remodelling and bunker work. He seemed to generally have a light touch and perhaps favour penal bunkering in many of these cases. But that often doesn’t seem the case at his more high profile work. He seemed more considered about bunker placement, yet more forceful with stamp of man either by work or trying to tame an unruly site. I don’t know though, it could be his decisions were more budget related than anything most of the time. Which begs the question if true, self imposed or contract dictated budget restrictions? Anyway, I would place a braid firmly in the Golden Age if only for his  aesthetics. Braid May have generally leaned toward the penal mindset, but the Golden Age was also about aesthetics. Braid wasn’t particularly flashy, but he wasn’t Victorian. In fact, I think of much of Braid’s work as utilitarian, similar to 60s muni - cheaper public course work.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Simon Barrington

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Re: Eras and Notable Architects in those Eras
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2024, 07:40:20 AM »




Simon -- I think Willie Park was at least as clear a bridge between penal and strategic. If you look at his original Sunningdale and Huntercombe from 1900, it is clear that he got strategy but couldn't, at least at that time, make the leap to naturalism that Colt, principally, pioneered.



Thanks Adam, and much appreciated.


I did not mean to imply that Braid was solely THE bridge, as many were involved as is ever the case for such movements in the art.


But, Braid was often referred to as "formulaic" and "penal" in the writings of other's (for various reasons; class, commercial intent etc.) and that was unfair when you see what he put onto the ground and what he wrote. As you can see from Sean's equally kind reply this perception persists even now.


It is a shame that not enough of "us" (if I may) have read "Advanced Golf" 1908 which was one of the first articulations in print of specifically non-penal design intent. Too many read other's summaries of that book, and not the source text (of the two chapters on design) which is under-appreciated and well worth digging into.


I have found published examples of other's courses benchmarking their existing course, or asking other designers to design a new course, around Braid's principles around that time including even in the US. His writings spread the word of strategic design far and wide. He also wrote one of the first Ladies' Instructional Books, he actively was trying to "grow the game".


Huntercombe I know well, as I took up the game there as a boy (so so lucky), and I know from early experience there are numerous "penal" hazards there.
These were designed not found, so it is clear Park was evolving his work at that time...but that is how these things happen...ideas shared and collaborations and/or imitations made that result in a movement. For example, you'll know that in 1910 Braid and Colt worked together to design Bishops Stortford, so ideas were flowing around in all directions...I just think Braid's part in this movement and change is under-appreciated.


Cheers

Simon Barrington

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Re: Eras and Notable Architects in those Eras
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2024, 08:07:23 AM »




I think of Park Jr as the main bridge between Victorian and Golden Age. Fowler also fits the tagline to some degree.

Braid is an interesting case. He was often brought in for remodelling and bunker work. He seemed to generally have a light touch and perhaps favour penal bunkering in many of these cases. But that often doesn’t seem the case at his more high profile work. He seemed more considered about bunker placement, yet more forceful with stamp of man either by work or trying to tame an unruly site. I don’t know though, it could be his decisions were more budget related than anything most of the time. Which begs the question if true, self imposed or contract dictated budget restrictions? Anyway, I would place a braid firmly in the Golden Age if only for his  aesthetics. Braid May have generally leaned toward the penal mindset, but the Golden Age was also about aesthetics. Braid wasn’t particularly flashy, but he wasn’t Victorian. In fact, I think of much of Braid’s work as utilitarian, similar to 60s muni - cheaper public course work.

Ciao



Agree with Fowler too, and he was a clear inspiration to Braid (as was OTM) and others. Park was also part of this movement which involved many. As per my reply to Adam I just think Braid's part in this movement across eras on the ground and in print is under-appreciated.


Braid was not as "penal" as others painted him.
There is sometimes confusion (by others, sometimes convienently) between an individual brutally tough pot-bunker or collection of pots which he was rightly known for placing strategically, and genuinely "penal" hazard (cross-carry or restricting barrier on both sides of a hole). He did not like to use the latter, such was his written preference and practice.


Beyond that, your kind comments are spot-on (I can see you appreciate his work which is great to read) as he certainly took on sites and projects that others would reject on land or financial considerations. His fees were often a half of others and he made genuinely great golf on a shoestring for many clubs. I think he was potentially the first real minimalist and certainly in tune aesthetically with the environment of the locality. He just worked with what he found to extract as much fun/challenge as possible (as did his inspiration OTM)


He, as the longest driver of the Triumvirate by some way, understood how to toughen up Open Championship courses better than anyone post the Haskell Ball. Hence, he is rightly known/lauded for his extensive re-bunkering of Troon, Carnoustie, Royal Cinque Ports, and Prestwick. He also was paid for suggestions at Royal St Georges for the 1922 Open, but it is unclear if these were implemented, notably he returned to play The Open there many times including in 1938 at the age of 68!


Cheers




Sean_A

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Re: Eras and Notable Architects in those Eras
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2024, 08:26:06 AM »
Yep, the best of Braid is as good as any architect. He was criminally overlooked in this area.

The Golden Age Oxbridge set were a boon for golf design. However, I wish they didn’t hammer so hard on two elements design; namely blind shots and penal design. Penal design took on a negative connotation in this period and that, imo, should not be the case.

Ciao
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Ian Andrew

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Re: Eras and Notable Architects in those Eras
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2024, 11:15:29 AM »
So what defines a "prominent architect" ? Lots of work? Fame? That's usually the pattern.


If you really wanted to find out who "matters", find out which architects influenced designer's careers. Don't ask just a single popular architect, but a series of designers. It would teach you a lot more about who matters and who probably should be on a list. It tends to take the prolific and puts better perspective on their legacy. But more importantly, it brings forward some lesser known talented designers to where they can be better appreciated for their contribution. For the current era, you can do the same by asking who's really good among your peers.


I always thought every architecture podcast should end with who's a really talented architect we don't talk enough about.
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Thomas Dai

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Re: Eras and Notable Architects in those Eras
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2024, 11:22:15 AM »
James Braids book ‘Advanced Golf’ is well worth acquiring. What he and those who assisted him with the work on site achieved often on far from ideal terrain and with limited funds is amazing.


Is there a place for including the likes of Philip MacKenzie Ross and Frank Pennick who as well as original work attended to courses ravaged by WW2. And then there’s Eddie Hackett.


Atb

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Eras and Notable Architects in those Eras
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2024, 12:38:33 PM »
You might add Rod Whitman to the Current Period. He is designing some good stuff. Cabot Links is but one example.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Ira Fishman

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Re: Eras and Notable Architects in those Eras
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2024, 01:25:32 PM »
So what defines a "prominent architect" ? Lots of work? Fame? That's usually the pattern.


If you really wanted to find out who "matters", find out which architects influenced designer's careers. Don't ask just a single popular architect, but a series of designers. It would teach you a lot more about who matters and who probably should be on a list. It tends to take the prolific and puts better perspective on their legacy. But more importantly, it brings forward some lesser known talented designers to where they can be better appreciated for their contribution. For the current era, you can do the same by asking who's really good among your peers.


I always thought every architecture podcast should end with who's a really talented architect we don't talk enough about.


Ian,


I am most curious who you would put on your list of architects who had a significant influence on other architects. I know that you did a insightful ranking of architects but you were answering a different question, it was quite a few years ago, and you did not want to include architects who were still living.


Thanks.


Ira

Tom_Doak

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Re: Eras and Notable Architects in those Eras
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2024, 01:33:07 PM »
Matt:


If you wanted to tackle something REALLY useful, you could try to compile the research into which designers should get PRIMARY credit for each course.  Many clubs have done this for their own course via club histories, and many more have been pored over on this site . . . but the information is very scattered and impossible to find when you want it.


Listing a course under five or seven names may be accurate, but it is often misleading as well, and in the end, pretty unhelpful.  For example if you were to look at a listing of courses by Tom Fazio and found his consulting work at Bel Air . . . yes, he did work there, but no, there is nothing of Tom Fazio's work in the course as it exists today.


Likewise, who built / shaped what can be very misleading, especially when presented by someone who shaped a handful of tees at course x and make it sound like they were the main guy.  I am not sure all of that really belongs on an architecture database . . . especially not if it isn't confirmed by the club or by the designer(s).  Where it certainly DOES belong is in the club's own histories, but most of them are very poor in that capacity, because they are written by people who don't understand the process.


I don't mean to suggest this would be an easy task.  It would be very hard to compile and that is why no one has done it, and why there is still so much bad info out there.  Your most important goal should be not to add to the bad information.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Eras and Notable Architects in those Eras
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2024, 01:36:50 PM »

If you really wanted to find out who "matters", find out which architects influenced designer's careers. Don't ask just a single popular architect, but a series of designers. It would teach you a lot more about who matters and who probably should be on a list. It tends to take the prolific and puts better perspective on their legacy. But more importantly, it brings forward some lesser known talented designers to where they can be better appreciated for their contribution. For the current era, you can do the same by asking who's really good among your peers.





If I were to be asked my own influences, I would have to understand how deep you wanted to go! 


And does someone's writing count?  Tom Simpson's writing influenced me a good deal, even though I haven't really seen a lot of his work.

Tim Martin

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Re: Eras and Notable Architects in those Eras
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2024, 01:56:26 PM »

If you really wanted to find out who "matters", find out which architects influenced designer's careers. Don't ask just a single popular architect, but a series of designers. It would teach you a lot more about who matters and who probably should be on a list. It tends to take the prolific and puts better perspective on their legacy. But more importantly, it brings forward some lesser known talented designers to where they can be better appreciated for their contribution. For the current era, you can do the same by asking who's really good among your peers.





If I were to be asked my own influences, I would have to understand how deep you wanted to go! 


And does someone's writing count?  Tom Simpson's writing influenced me a good deal, even though I haven't really seen a lot of his work.


Tom-I don’t know of any modern architect that has seen the variety of courses on a global scale that you have so I would be interested in your reply even if it’s not a deep dive.

Pete Lavallee

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Re: Eras and Notable Architects in those Eras
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2024, 02:11:52 PM »
A glaring omission from your Golden Age list is William Watson and A V Macan.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

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