Fleecing People

[Ken Moum]

You think golf is bad (I reluctantly use that word), you should be in Sturgis, SD the beginning of August.


We spend summers there because my wife's family is there.  We had a campsite a few years ago for June @ $600 a month.  We got the prorated price until a week before the motorcycle rally, when it went up to $90 a night.  During the rally, it was $160 a night.  I suspect that it's much higher now.


Re. peak demand, there are all kinds of Campgrounds that are only open two-three weeks a year.


Glencoe (nice Scottish name), on the edge of town, has 1100 sites with 30-amp electric service, roughly 100 cabins and about 150 acres of tent camping and it's on'y open TWO WEEKS a year.


Fortunately there aren't many golfers who take their clubs to a bike rally, so the local courses don't run up the prices.


Consider that Sturgis has less than 8,000 residents, and the Rally attracts in the vicinity of 500,000 bikers.

[Kalen Braley]

As I understand it, the primary difference between Dynamic Pricing vs Price Gouging due to a Demand Shock is whether it was due to an expected/planned/anticipated event(s)...or not. So far I haven't seen any examples of unforeseen/unknown scenarios in this thread.

P.S.  I suppose there are some gray areas like hurricane season in September, but I believe business are still subject to being prosecuted in those situations.

Kalen-Let me know how many hotels on Washington Road and Masters ticket resellers are prosecuted for price gouging. Lather, rinse repeat for the Super Bowl, Final Four, World Series etc. None of the pricing for golf during Masters week comes close to the percentage increases for hotels and event tickets. Right or wrong it’s the way of the world.

Tim,

I'd certainly put the Masters, Super Bowl, and Final Four in the "expected/planned/anticipated event" aka Dynamic Pricing category as those dates and locations are known well in advance as opposed to a local store gouging people on TP and Water bottles because a Tornado hit the town.

Throw in the fact that sporting events are non-essential activities, goods, or services and I have zero issue with any of that.

[Matt Schoolfield]

I'm not fan of dynamic pricing. It creates a class system...the have's and the have not's.  A hotel room when the local college is playing a Saturday home game will soar from $200 a night to $350 a night putting attending out of reach for many.

I've just about thrown up my hands with this thread, as it seems to be much more about cultural expectations (expectations of folks who apparently think the customer is always right) than actual economics. However, I do want to push back strongly on the point above.

Dynamic pricing should dramatically reduce the class distinction, not increase it. We tend to think of "class" as purely economic, but class is far from that. Things have value, and money is one way to capture that value, but not the only way. So let's suppose the other way around, suppose we lived in a world where in the middle of masters week, golf courses must keep their prices flat, period.

Firstly, there would me massive shortage for tee times, so booking tee times would be challenging. Now, you may say, "oh, well just have a lottery" ... but why should a business have a lottery for a bunch of randos when they can reward their loyal customers with the most valuable tee times of the year? Realistically, you still have to look at the incentives, and they would almost certainly lead to visitors being last in line to get tee times, not first.

Suddenly, you need to know someone to play these golf courses at these times... Sound familiar? If every there is a class system, it's a world in which you need friends in high places to access goods and services that aren't available to the general public (especially when those goods and services aren't priced at a premium).

Ironically, high prices -- if they are specifically designed to meet demand -- are a class flattener, not divider. The entire point of dynamic pricing is to incentivize a business to open their doors to everyone. The fact that people want to play golf when the demand is highest is their problem.

Again, none of this is to say that dynamic pricing cannot be used for anti-competitive, exploitative purposes. It can. However, simply increasing price to meet demand is not one of the ways that happens. These golf courses aren't for visitors. Their business models are built on locals paying a daily rate, thankfully they do open their doors to visitors, even if at a higher rate during peak demand.

[Thomas Dai]

There are some places where the greenfee might attractively appear a little less expensive than others but then you see that the price of the food and beverage or the merchandise in the pro shop or the price of a buggy or electric rental trolley is somewhat greater than you might pay somewhere else where the greenfee is higher. And then for travelling golfers there are the extras that sometimes don’t get considered like accommodation, food, rental cars, fuel etc.
Swings and roundabouts. Left hand, right hand. If folks ain’t making any money they likely won’t be around for long to provide the service or product some desire.

Atb

[Craig Sweet]

Christmas break comes and you want to take the kids skiing....dynamic pricing blows that plan out of the water. How do you grow a sport when it becomes too expensive for the family to participate?   


It is most certainly a "class thing".....Dynamic pricing creates a more exclusive event, not a more inclusive event.


Shoot, how do you expect the average golfer to appreciate great golf course archetecture if they can't afford to play the course?

[Matt Schoolfield]

Christmas break comes and you want to take the kids skiing....dynamic pricing blows that plan out of the water. How do you grow a sport when it becomes too expensive for the family to participate?   

With respect, you're making the argument "nobody goes there anymore... it's too crowded." The dynamic pricing doesn't keep people away. The reason why it's even possible is that the place is already full. I think special rates for kids are important, but again, that's also a form of dynamic pricing.

Shoot, how do you expect the average golfer to appreciate great golf course architecture if they can't afford to play the course?

We already can... just not in Phoenix during the Phoenix Open. This entire thread is about prices for rounds of golf in Phoenix during the Phoenix Open. Maybe don't go to the Phoenix Open in the first place.

High prices suck. I fully agree with you there. But being mad about high prices --during peak demand times-- is like being mad at gravity for because it hurts when we fall down. The gravity is always going to be there, and the statement "there's such thing as a free lunch" is always going to hold. If we want to play great architectural courses in Phoenix, we should just wait a couple weeks, stay at a hotel for cheaper, and play golf with some locals.

The way we make things cheaper for everyone in the long run is to increase supply. Build more municipal courses, approve more hotel construction, and I'll admit that supply of these has been heavily restricted in my lifetime. However, if the markets can't support more courses or hotels during the rest of the year, then the prices are just at an unfortunately expensive equilibrium.

As for dynamic pricing itself... I've played enough twilight rounds at expensive courses to understand that dynamic pricing opens as many doors as it closes.

[John Foley]

Isn't there a HUGE difference in Zac (and Nick Schreiber @ Old Barnwell & the members @ Palmetto along others in the area) offering access to the club (that HE built w/ his group which we are not involved in) and the so called market dynamics in surge pricing that run rampant at certain places at certain times? We're here to talk about Golf Course Architecture. With this very generous offer more of us will see these places live not just through the lenses of social media and YouTube. I'm here to say thanks and hopefully we get to see more of this.


BTW if you haven't seen it go check out the Every Hole at The Tree Farm and Old Barnwell video's on You Tube that have been post recently. Just spectacular.

[Rob Marshall]

Christmas break comes and you want to take the kids skiing....dynamic pricing blows that plan out of the water. How do you grow a sport when it becomes too expensive for the family to participate?   


It is most certainly a "class thing".....Dynamic pricing creates a more exclusive event, not a more inclusive event.


Shoot, how do you expect the average golfer to appreciate great golf course archetecture if they can't afford to play the course?

It's more with lack of access IMO. Half the courses discussed here, very few can get on because they are private. Especially if you are a person who would never ask anyone other than the pro for access. Nothing wrong with writing a letter or having your pro call the clubs pro IMO.

[Tim_Weiman]

Christmas break comes and you want to take the kids skiing....dynamic pricing blows that plan out of the water. How do you grow a sport when it becomes too expensive for the family to participate?   


It is most certainly a "class thing".....Dynamic pricing creates a more exclusive event, not a more inclusive event.


Shoot, how do you expect the average golfer to appreciate great golf course archetecture if they can't afford to play the course?

Craig,


Appreciating great golf architecture does take a commitment of time and money. You can’t just go to your local library or museum. There is no way around that.


As a result, most people, even die hard golf architecture junkies, have to be selective and visit and play the courses they would most like to play.


For example, I have no interest in paying $1,000 to play Shadow Creek, in part because I’m not into Las Vegas at all, but also because the course itself doesn’t interest me.


However, I will probably spend quite a bit more to visit and play Te Aria North. It just feels like it would be an enjoyable trip and course to play a few times (similar to a previous trip to Cape Kidnappers).

[Kalen Braley]

Craig,

I would certainly agree with Matt here in concept.  Doing just about any activity on the Christmas break generally costs more, especially if it involves travel, hotels, and/or winter sports.  But to your example, here in Utah if you don't mind skiing in late March the crowds, rates, and hotel rooms are significantly less.

P.S.  I don't think anyone on this forum hasn't benefitted from Dynamic Pricing in the form of discounted twilight green fees or playing for a massively discounted rate in January when the course is empty and its 30 degrees outside!

[Craig Sweet]

Kalen and Mike, I used the example of skiing over xmas break as an example of dynamic pricing excluding some folk from participating.  It is pretty obvious that more expensive lift tickets and lodging will keep many people away. Those that can afford the inflated price will be okay. Those that can't will have to find an alternative.


You don't grow the game by pricing people out with higher green fees or making the top courses to exclusive to have access.

[JohnVDB]

In 1972-73 I rented a small house in Del Mar CA along with two other UCSD students. it was 1/2 block from the beach.  If we wanted it for the 9 month school year it was $200 a month.  If we wanted it for the entire year it was $250 a month.

[John Handley]

"You don't grow the game by pricing people out with higher green fees or making the top courses to exclusive to have access"


I'm not sure this whole thread is about growing the game. It's more about courses charging higher fees during peak times. Let's remember, most golf courses/clubs are a "for profit" business.  Especially private clubs, do not "owe" anyone on the outside anything.  It may suck if you cannot gain access to play a course you want to play, but not every course/club has their sights set on growing the game.  And that's ok.  There are many courses/clubs out there that do have a mission to grow the game.


The US model is clearly different than GB&I. I do find it refreshing that I can access some of the top courses/clubs in the world with some effort and some money.  That said, I'm about to drop a $1K to play 36 at Sunningdale and couldn't be happier. I don't have to play Sunningdale, but I want to and they are willing to offer me a time, and I am willing to pay their fee.  Everyone is happy.  It's a choice. 


As many examples have been included in this thread, golf is no different than other sports, hotels, flights, etc. in their pricing model.  So calling it price gouging or fleecing is inaccurate. They are doing what a smart business should do in a capitalistic society.

[Charlie Goerges]

Kalen and Mike, I used the example of skiing over xmas break as an example of dynamic pricing excluding some folk from participating.  It is pretty obvious that more expensive lift tickets and lodging will keep many people away. Those that can afford the inflated price will be okay. Those that can't will have to find an alternative.


You don't grow the game by pricing people out with higher green fees or making the top courses to exclusive to have access.

For Kalen, Mike, Matt and everyone else who's made the point that this is just how it works and that dynamic pricing gives us benefits in other ways, you're all absolutely correct on the laws/rules of economics. I feel like Craig's point is that people on the lower end of the income scale can get the worst of both worlds here. If you don't have much money, you often also don't have the flexibility to take advantage of the benefits of low dynamic pricing. Now I realize that there's essentially nothing most of us can do about it, but it pays to acknowledge it I think. Low twilight rates make no difference to someone who only has free time on a weekend. Great shoulder season rates make no difference to someone whose only holidays are July 4th and Thanksgiving and Christmas. It's the job of nobody on this board to fix that paradox, but it's fair to accept that it exists for some people.

[John Handley]

Kalen and Mike, I used the example of skiing over xmas break as an example of dynamic pricing excluding some folk from participating.  It is pretty obvious that more expensive lift tickets and lodging will keep many people away. Those that can afford the inflated price will be okay. Those that can't will have to find an alternative.


You don't grow the game by pricing people out with higher green fees or making the top courses to exclusive to have access.

For Kalen, Mike, Matt and everyone else who's made the point that this is just how it works and that dynamic pricing gives us benefits in other ways, you're all absolutely correct on the laws/rules of economics. I feel like Craig's point is that people on the lower end of the income scale can get the worst of both worlds here. If you don't have much money, you often also don't have the flexibility to take advantage of the benefits of low dynamic pricing. Now I realize that there's essentially nothing most of us can do about it, but it pays to acknowledge it I think. Low twilight rates make no difference to someone who only has free time on a weekend. Great shoulder season rates make no difference to someone whose only holidays are July 4th and Thanksgiving and Christmas. It's the job of nobody on this board to fix that paradox, but it's fair to accept that it exists for some people.

I think it's fair to say that many it not all of us here on this site acknowledge and accept your comments above.  And for the less fortunate who want to play golf, there are certainly avenues they can go down to get into the game.


What we talk about on this site are primarily Top 100-esque courses and clubs.  The tip of the spear if you will.  These places tend to be exclusive, private, and only available to those in the golf world with connections, and/or money.  Someone who works in the manner you speak of above, is probably not trying to play Troon North during WM week or visit Augusta during the Masters.  So let's separate those discussions.


I am all for growing the game and giving people access to the game of golf.  But honestly, that's not what we were discussing in this thread.

[Charlie Goerges]

Kalen and Mike, I used the example of skiing over xmas break as an example of dynamic pricing excluding some folk from participating.  It is pretty obvious that more expensive lift tickets and lodging will keep many people away. Those that can afford the inflated price will be okay. Those that can't will have to find an alternative.


You don't grow the game by pricing people out with higher green fees or making the top courses to exclusive to have access.

For Kalen, Mike, Matt and everyone else who's made the point that this is just how it works and that dynamic pricing gives us benefits in other ways, you're all absolutely correct on the laws/rules of economics. I feel like Craig's point is that people on the lower end of the income scale can get the worst of both worlds here. If you don't have much money, you often also don't have the flexibility to take advantage of the benefits of low dynamic pricing. Now I realize that there's essentially nothing most of us can do about it, but it pays to acknowledge it I think. Low twilight rates make no difference to someone who only has free time on a weekend. Great shoulder season rates make no difference to someone whose only holidays are July 4th and Thanksgiving and Christmas. It's the job of nobody on this board to fix that paradox, but it's fair to accept that it exists for some people.

I think it's fair to say that many it not all of us here on this site acknowledge and accept your comments above.  And for the less fortunate who want to play golf, there are certainly avenues they can go down to get into the game.


What we talk about on this site are primarily Top 100-esque courses and clubs.  The tip of the spear if you will.  These places tend to be exclusive, private, and only available to those in the golf world with connections, and/or money.  Someone who works in the manner you speak of above, is probably not trying to play Troon North during WM week or visit Augusta during the Masters.  So let's separate those discussions.


I am all for growing the game and giving people access to the game of golf.  But honestly, that's not what we were discussing in this thread.

What we talk about on this website is golf course architecture. And stuff surrounding that topic.


Edit: that comes off as too flippant, sorry. To acknowledge, yes, a lot of our discussion is about the top 100-esque courses, but I don't think even a simple majority of our discussion is purely about that. Also yes, it is not our main objective to grow the game, though many architectural choices can affect the growth of the game. At any rate, we're getting off the topic as it started, It's just when I see a point repeated like Craig has, I sense he wasn't feeling heard and I wanted to say something.

[Craig Sweet]

Thank you Charlie...


There are many great pleasures in this world that are out of reach for many people.  Not everyone can take advantage of early season discounts, or twilight prices. 


Last year I asked if golf courses might go the way of ski areas and consolidate resulting in something like the Ikon Pass.  I don't think it's far fetched to see this happening to golf. A handful of owners owning the best golf resorts limiting access to only those with deep pockets might very well lead to a multi golf resort pass.  Two rounds at each Kohler owned golf resorts...etc.

[Ben Sims]

Last year I asked if golf courses might go the way of ski areas and consolidate resulting in something like the Ikon Pass.  I don't think it's far fetched to see this happening to golf. A handful of owners owning the best golf resorts limiting access to only those with deep pockets might very well lead to a multi golf resort pass.  Two rounds at each Kohler owned golf resorts...etc.

A friend and I skied up to one of the 10th Mountain Division huts (Uncle Buds Hut) over the weekend. One of our hut-mates said that Alterra (Ikon Pass) was going to purchase Arapahoe Basin and it would be announced this week. I scoffed and put some more snow on the furnace to melt.


We skied back to the truck Monday and I had three texts asking me about it. It was announced on social media Monday AM. I was really sad about it. But then I thought, the basin is going to be even cheaper now! It’s funny, these collectives you are talking about actually *increase* access. I’m no fan of gatekeeping, and more people experiencing A-basin is okay with me.

That said, golf is a different animal and has a distinctly different history than skiing. 

[Craig Sweet]

Ben, I was heart broken when Alterra purchased Schweitzer...


Back in the early days ski areas were owned by hardy individuals , families, and local communities. Over time the industry consolidated and little by little every consolidation brought a larger corporation into the mix.  And to be honest, it was the housing/lodging developments that drove this...hauling people up the mountain was never the real value of a ski area resort.


Golf might be lagging behind the ski industry but I don't think you can rule out a similar consolidation. 

[Tommy Williamsen]

Last year I asked if golf courses might go the way of ski areas and consolidate resulting in something like the Ikon Pass.  I don't think it's far fetched to see this happening to golf. A handful of owners owning the best golf resorts limiting access to only those with deep pockets might very well lead to a multi golf resort pass.  Two rounds at each Kohler owned golf resorts...etc.

A friend and I skied up to one of the 10th Mountain Division huts (Uncle Buds Hut) over the weekend. One of our hut-mates said that Alterra (Ikon Pass) was going to purchase Arapahoe Basin and it would be announced this week. I scoffed and put some more snow on the furnace to melt.


We skied back to the truck Monday and I had three texts asking me about it. It was announced on social media Monday AM. I was really sad about it. But then I thought, the basin is going to be even cheaper now! It’s funny, these collectives you are talking about actually *increase* access. I’m no fan of gatekeeping, and more people experiencing A-basin is okay with me.

That said, golf is a different animal and has a distinctly different history than skiing. 

I will be at ABasin next week. Friends of mine that ski there weekly are in deep mourning. It is like a death in the family. Ikon pass holders have limited access this year. I suspect that will change next year. ABasin split from the Epic Pass because the mountain was too crowded. Altera is going to expand parking. It will get crowded again. It used to be my place to go on weekends. We will see what it is like next year.

[Tim_Weiman]

Kalen and Mike, I used the example of skiing over xmas break as an example of dynamic pricing excluding some folk from participating.  It is pretty obvious that more expensive lift tickets and lodging will keep many people away. Those that can afford the inflated price will be okay. Those that can't will have to find an alternative.


You don't grow the game by pricing people out with higher green fees or making the top courses to exclusive to have access.

Craig,


Out of curiosity, have you spent much time across the pond playing the top courses there?

[Craig Sweet]

Tim, I have spent a fair amount of time in Ireland and Europe. I have never played golf "across the pond".  With few exceptions my job never allowed me to visit Ireland until late September and October.  Certainly decent golf weather but I had other plans than golfing.

[Bill Crane]

Wow, talk about a First World Problem !
Crazy the cost to play Pebble Beach and TPC Sawgrass Players course at any time.
Seems like all the Private clubs in the Aiken area upcharge for guests Masters week, and the members get a return for largely giving up their course for a period of time.     
Many members probably rent their houses out as well, we could get into a discussion about that, too.   Residents of every community within 45 mins or so of Augusta get a return on assets for the trouble of the volume of Masters attendees stretching area resources.
Why should the Tree Farm be any different ?
Will say that Aiken has really changed since I was there with my family at age 5 to visit my great grandmother and great Aunt and Uncle.   That was a long time ago.

[Ben Sims]

Last year I asked if golf courses might go the way of ski areas and consolidate resulting in something like the Ikon Pass.  I don't think it's far fetched to see this happening to golf. A handful of owners owning the best golf resorts limiting access to only those with deep pockets might very well lead to a multi golf resort pass.  Two rounds at each Kohler owned golf resorts...etc.

A friend and I skied up to one of the 10th Mountain Division huts (Uncle Buds Hut) over the weekend. One of our hut-mates said that Alterra (Ikon Pass) was going to purchase Arapahoe Basin and it would be announced this week. I scoffed and put some more snow on the furnace to melt.


We skied back to the truck Monday and I had three texts asking me about it. It was announced on social media Monday AM. I was really sad about it. But then I thought, the basin is going to be even cheaper now! It’s funny, these collectives you are talking about actually *increase* access. I’m no fan of gatekeeping, and more people experiencing A-basin is okay with me.

That said, golf is a different animal and has a distinctly different history than skiing. 

I will be at ABasin next week. Friends of mine that ski there weekly are in deep mourning. It is like a death in the family. Ikon pass holders have limited access this year. I suspect that will change next year. ABasin split from the Epic Pass because the mountain was too crowded. Altera is going to expand parking. It will get crowded again. It used to be my place to go on weekends. We will see what it is like next year.

Mourning? The Basin has been nearly unskiable on weekends for two decades. That’s a great mountain on I-70 problem, not a VMR/Alterra problem.


This thread is bizarre. Are we trying to champion gatekeeping? Or are we arguing that what TF and others are doing is good for access and experience?

[Tim Gavrich]

There's a virtuous side to the high visitor fees clubs in the UK/Ireland charge that American clubs that take advantage of peak demand via surge-type green fee pricing don't quite do: place a significant intrinsic value on competitive golf.


Yes, a 36-hole day at Sunningdale will cost about $750 this year, but the entry fee for the club's annual Gerald Micklem Cup, a 54-hole mid-amateur event on the New Course in September, is £140, or about $175.


I learned today that the entry fee for the annual South of Ireland amateur event at Lahinch is the equivalent of about $60.


Meanwhile, my local county championship here in Florida, a 36-hole tournament, is $150. And the course, while nice enough, is nowhere near Sunningdale New or Lahinch. That $150 represents about a 40% premium on the cost of green fees for two rounds.


The U.S. seems to be just about the only country where low-handicap/competitive players are actually punished (i.e. "fleeced," you could argue) for wanting to play competitively.