[John Connolly]

I'm guessing it's difficult to design a good hole that shows up on the card thusly:


8th hole: Par 4/5 420 yds/510 yds


So any given day, the white tees are set for 420 or 510. Can a good hole be designed that serves these two masters?

[Sean_A]

In my experience the longer version is often the medal tee and the shorter version the daily tee. Basically two different cards. It’s difficult to make a hole like this flow for the walk.


Ciao

[Niall C]

John,


When I was a member at Moray and took guests on for the first time I enjoyed when we stepped on to the second tee, which is a long thin tee box with all the different coloured tees set out on it. When I gave my guest the option of playing from either the white medal tee or the yellow regular tee that was usually set out a few yards in front of the whites they invariably opted for the yellows. When I then pointed out that it was a par 4 from the yellows but a par 5 from the whites they usually changed their mind. 


Not really similar to your scenario but it shows how peoples perceptions of a hole change when the par changes.


Niall

[Jim_Coleman]

    Although it’s been a while since I’ve been there, I think the 8th at Winchester CC near Boston fits the bill.

[Tom_Doak]

There are lots of holes like this.  Usually we just call them par-5 holes and they will only call them a 4 for tournament play.

[Tim Martin]

I think it works on the opening hole at Newport CC. Manufacturers Golf & CC’s 18th is the only hole I can think of that has an upper and lower green to differentiate par(4 or 5).

[Thomas Dai]

Rather than focusing first a holes likely par isn't it more important to design a quality hole and worry about the par (or pars) afterwards?
For what it's worth there are many 4-5 holes in the UK. Some 3-4 too.
And then there are the various aspects of the new WHS to consider.
atb

[Tim Martin]

And then there are the various aspects of the new WHS to consider.
atb

Manufacturers has sixteen rated options because of the two greens on 18. Eight for the men and eight for the women.

[Jim_Coleman]

   I’ve probably played Manufacturers 50 times. I’ve never played the upper green,

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Isn't this a fairly common practice on 9-hole courses in the UK&I where they use alternative tees for some holes; usually a long par 4 / shortish par 5? 

[John Connolly]

There are lots of holes like this.  Usually we just call them par-5 holes and they will only call them a 4 for tournament play.

The heart of what I'm getting at is this: How would one manage the design of the hole if it had to serve as a par 4 and a par 5? I'll start with the green. If a green is built to receive a 160 yd 2nd shot approach when played as a par 4, does the green become less ideal in its reception of an 80 yd wedge when played as the third shot as a par 5? I understand you can plop the tees down 90 yards apart and call it a par 4 or 5 accordingly, but how do you have to think about the green design if you do that?

[Brad Tufts]

Charles River in MA has two holes like this with borderline yardages, #7 and #10, both roughly 500 yards from the back tee (although they were building another further back on 7).  Back-tee tournaments tend to play them on the card as par fours, like they did during the US Amateur where CR was the secondary course.


10 especially fits the dual par as there is a slope reachable by longer players that will send drives 50+ yards forward, but only after a 275y+ drive.  7 is a dogleg that can be cut by long players, leaving a mid-iron or less into the green.


The way these holes are, and the way that this should perhaps be handled, is by an intricate green that offers interest for both wedge third shots for shorter players, or interest in short game for the many second shots that will end up around the green for longer players.  I think the goal is that making 4 should be a challenge whether a par 4 or 5 on the card.

[Niall C]

There are lots of holes like this.  Usually we just call them par-5 holes and they will only call them a 4 for tournament play.

The heart of what I'm getting at is this: How would one manage the design of the hole if it had to serve as a par 4 and a par 5? I'll start with the green. If a green is built to receive a 160 yd 2nd shot approach when played as a par 4, does the green become less ideal in its reception of an 80 yd wedge when played as the third shot as a par 5? I understand you can plop the tees down 90 yards apart and call it a par 4 or 5 accordingly, but how do you have to think about the green design if you do that?

John


I'm not a golf course architect but speaking as an enthusiast I hate to see formulaic design where the green is designed/built to a certain size for a perceived length of approach shot. For one thing, never underestimate the ability of the average golfer to get out of position !


Perhaps more pertinently think of the holes that are better for NOT having a green receptive to the length of approach shot. Case in point is the Road Hole at TOC. For most mortals it is a long 2 shotter yet the green is really set up for the short approach from the right. Arguably (I'd certainly argue the case) what makes the hole great is the green complex relative to the approach rather than the carry over the wall.


Put it another way, if you were to reverse engineer the Road Hole, where would you put the tee to suit the green complex ? Probably some where near the corner of the wall to allow a drive to land short right to allow the player a short/mid iron up the length of the green. I think it would be a good hole but would it be better than it is now ?


Niall

[Wayne_Kozun]

There are lots of holes like this.  Usually we just call them par-5 holes and they will only call them a 4 for tournament play.

Like number 2 at Pebble Beach - doesn't it play as a par 5 for the typical daily player, and for the tour during the AT&T, but it is played as a par 4 when they hold the US Open?

[mike_malone]

How about different pars for different tees on the same day? This leads to championship tees (4) being in front of member tees (5).

[Adam Lawrence]

There are lots of holes like this.  Usually we just call them par-5 holes and they will only call them a 4 for tournament play.

In the UK, it's generally the other way round. It arises when the yellow (men's) tee is shorter than, and the white (medal) tee is longer than whatever arbitrary distance the club thought meant a hole had to be a par five, usually 475 yards. It leads to some oddities: holes that from the back are very short fives, but from the normal tees are utterly brutal fours.

It doesn't _matter_ of course, because par is only a number, and it probably mattered less still when the vast majority of social golf was matchplay (I think nowadays Stableford scoring is more common). But it does lead to gnashing of teeth and whingeing about 'unfairness'.

[Matt_Cohn]

As far as holes designed to play with multiple pars, there was the 2015 US Open, where the the 18th and I think 1st holes at Chambers Bay both switched between par 4 and par 5 (right?). The pros seemed to hate 18 as a par 4 so it only got one round that way.

[Michael Felton]

The 36 holes at Walton Heath when combined for the Ryder Cup course has several holes that change pars. 4 on the Old goes from a par 4 to a par 5. 14, 16 on the Old and 13 on the New all go from par 5s to par 4s. None of those holes "feel" wrong played either way around. Some courses I think have smaller greens for par 5s since they're "supposed" to take a wedge, but Walton isn't really like that. All the greens are pretty big and all are suitable for either a par 4 or a par 5.

[Ian Andrew]

The last Canadian Open at Oakdale had five par fives playing as par fours in the composite course.


I’ve just flipped two fives for fours at Osprey Valley North for future events.



Btw, I’m quite certain I had a different par at Gleneagles Kings on the 18th than my father because we played different tees back in 1990.

[Mike_Clayton]

The 6th hole at Seven Mile Beach is Hobart is going to be a long 4 - around 475y - off the normal back tee but the second shot plays over some great ground which makes a really good landing area/layup for a long second shot followed by an interesting pitch.
Mike DeVries and I added a tee to (driving over the back of the 5th green) to stretch the hole to around 550y and make an alternate par 5.
Of course, most will play it as a three-shorter off the 475 tee - making it a good hole no matter which tee you play from.

[Ian Mackenzie]

#1 at Shoreacres


#1 at Old Elm


You've played both in the last year...;-)

[Ed Brzezowski]

And then there are the various aspects of the new WHS to consider.
atb

Manufacturers has sixteen rated options because of the two greens on 18. Eight for the men and eight for the women.

we got to rate that a while ago, what an adventure.

[Tom_Doak]

There are lots of holes like this.  Usually we just call them par-5 holes and they will only call them a 4 for tournament play.

The heart of what I'm getting at is this: How would one manage the design of the hole if it had to serve as a par 4 and a par 5? I'll start with the green. If a green is built to receive a 160 yd 2nd shot approach when played as a par 4, does the green become less ideal in its reception of an 80 yd wedge when played as the third shot as a par 5? I understand you can plop the tees down 90 yards apart and call it a par 4 or 5 accordingly, but how do you have to think about the green design if you do that?

John:

If you think that’s challenging, try to design a green that receives long and short shots from completely different angles (like I did for The Loop)!

Personally I always think about green design in terms of the low-trajectory golfer.  I would not design a green for a par five where if you didn’t hit two good shots and found yourself approaching from 290 yards instead of 80, you had no chance to get your ball on the green.

Generally, though, for a short par-5 I like to create a narrow target with trouble to the sides, so that a long hitter doesn’t still have an advantage even if he hits a bad second shot.  That works just as well for a par-4, too.

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