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Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Coul Links Lives (sort of, part 2)
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2024, 11:07:03 AM »
My opinion, obviously, doesn't count. We see these dilemmas periodically. I never know what to root for. I understand both sides.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Ben Sims

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Re: Coul Links Lives (sort of, part 2)
« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2024, 11:38:48 AM »
I’m interested in the present term impact of the golf course on the Mach Dunes SSSI. Has it been a disaster?

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Coul Links Lives (sort of, part 2)
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2024, 11:41:08 AM »
I’m interested in the present term impact of the golf course on the Mach Dunes SSSI. Has it been a disaster?


No, not at all, to the extent that there is a second course there in planning, though only a small part of it would be on the SSSI.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Niall C

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Re: Coul Links Lives (sort of, part 2)
« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2024, 11:51:25 AM »
https://www.thenational.scot/news/24116051.fergus-ewing-backs-plans-golf-course-protected-scottish-beach/


Interesting. A year ago I would have said that someone like Fergus Ewing backing the development would be an indicator to what way the Scot Gov would go however the way the SNP are splintering I'm not so sure now.


Niall

Niall C

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Re: Coul Links Lives (sort of, part 2)
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2024, 11:54:05 AM »
Ben


As Adam says, the Mach Dunes development hasn't had a detrimental impact largely because they worked with the various interest groups and took care not to go into the sensitive areas. Same with Dumbarnie.


Niall

Ben Sims

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Re: Coul Links Lives (sort of, part 2)
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2024, 12:02:52 PM »
Thanks fellas. My question was only half rhetorical, I assumed the invasiveness and impact of Mach Dunes golf on Mach Dunes SSSI to be relatively minimal. Kidd says that building a course in those dunes provides a purpose for the dunes and subsequently protects them further. Not sure how I could disagree.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Coul Links Lives (sort of, part 2)
« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2024, 12:20:59 PM »
It seemed inevitable that the decision would ultimately be made at the higher levels. 


But, correct me if wrong, wasn't the Balmedie application originally rejected locally and then approved by the government after being "pulled in" like this? 


Have the politics changed enough that this is seen as a likely negative outcome for the golf course now, instead of a positive as it was for Trump?

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Coul Links Lives (sort of, part 2)
« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2024, 12:30:25 PM »
Tom


At Balmedie it was rejected locally (chairman had the casting vote IIRC). It was called in and the Scottish Government approved the application (can't recall what the Reporters recommendation was). You may recall at the time the love-in between Trump and the First Minister Alex Salmond.


This time round it's the opposite, it's been approved locally although the Committee may have gone against the planning officers recommendation in making that decision, can't recall. However that approval went against planning policy so I think it inevitable it was getting called in irrespective of the politics. I wouldn't assume though that Scot Gov will refuse it again given that they seem to be falling out with their partners in Government, the Green party.


Niall

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Coul Links Lives (sort of, part 2)
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2024, 01:58:50 PM »
Ben

As Adam says, the Mach Dunes development hasn't had a detrimental impact largely because they worked with the various interest groups and took care not to go into the sensitive areas. Same with Dumbarnie.

Niall

That is absolutely not the case. Machrihanish Dunes was built entirely within the SSSI. It avoided certain parts of the SSSI, which is why the course had so much criticism for the length of the walk. Dumbarnie was built on sandy farmland next to dunes. One is an almost entirely found course, the other is 100 per cent shaped. I like Dumbarnie, they did an excellent job, but nothing there is natural. It is very similar to Kingsbarns or Castle Stuart in that regard.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2024, 02:37:11 PM by Adam Lawrence »
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Coul Links Lives (sort of, part 2)
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2024, 02:30:14 PM »
Ben

As Adam says, the Mach Dunes development hasn't had a detrimental impact largely because they worked with the various interest groups and took care not to go into the sensitive areas. Same with Dumbarnie.

Niall


That is absolutely not the case. Machrihanish Dunes was built entirely within the SSSI. It avoided certain parts of the SSSI, which is why the course had so much criticism for the length of the walk. Dumbarnie was built on sandy farmland next to dunes. One is an almost entirely found course, the other is 100 per cent shaped. I like Dumbarnie, they did an excellent job, but nothing there is natural. It is very similar to Kingsbarns or Castle Stuart in that regard.


I wasn’t going to argue with Niall because I’m not first hand familiar, but I looked on the SSSI website and found the map of the Mach Dunes site and it looks to entirely include the golf course.


I will make a maiden visit to the area this summer and get to see what the hubbub is about. Most interesting, if the Coul project gets to go forward, will be how different the course will look/play than Mach Dunes, based upon similar site impact constraints.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Coul Links Lives (sort of, part 2)
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2024, 03:50:21 PM »
Am I understanding this correctly, a second course at Machrihanish Dunes?
If so perhaps someone could provide further details (separate thread maybe)?

Atb

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Coul Links Lives (sort of, part 2)
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2024, 04:20:16 PM »
Am I understanding this correctly, a second course at Machrihanish Dunes?
If so perhaps someone could provide further details (separate thread maybe)?

Atb

There isn't a vast amount about it; I don't think a formal planning application has gone in yet, but see:

https://publicaccess.argyll-bute.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=RQ1621CHG9900

I did see a proposed routing plan at one point, and the course was planned to head inland, with at most a very few holes in the SSSI.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2024, 04:25:01 PM by Adam Lawrence »
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Coul Links Lives (sort of, part 2)
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2024, 05:35:52 PM »
Ben

As Adam says, the Mach Dunes development hasn't had a detrimental impact largely because they worked with the various interest groups and took care not to go into the sensitive areas. Same with Dumbarnie.

Niall

That is absolutely not the case. Machrihanish Dunes was built entirely within the SSSI. It avoided certain parts of the SSSI, which is why the course had so much criticism for the length of the walk. Dumbarnie was built on sandy farmland next to dunes. One is an almost entirely found course, the other is 100 per cent shaped. I like Dumbarnie, they did an excellent job, but nothing there is natural. It is very similar to Kingsbarns or Castle Stuart in that regard.


Adam


It absolutely is. I didn't say they didn't go into the SSSI, what I said was they worked with the likes SNH and avoided the sensitive areas. As you pointed out yourself there were areas at Mach Dunes that they didn't touch or weren't allowed to touch.


Niall

Thomas Dai

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Re: Coul Links Lives (sort of, part 2)
« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2024, 05:46:53 AM »
Am I understanding this correctly, a second course at Machrihanish Dunes?
If so perhaps someone could provide further details (separate thread maybe)?
Atb
There isn't a vast amount about it; I don't think a formal planning application has gone in yet, but see:
https://publicaccess.argyll-bute.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=RQ1621CHG9900
I did see a proposed routing plan at one point, and the course was planned to head inland, with at most a very few holes in the SSSI.
Thank you Adam.
Not quite what I was expecting - [size=78%]https://portal360.argyll-bute.gov.uk/civica/Resource/Civica/Handler.ashx/Doc/pagestream?cd=inline&pdf=true&docno=22896804[/size]
Atb

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Coul Links Lives (sort of, part 2)
« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2024, 06:37:35 AM »
Those documents are the Planning Application. The Council has requested an extension to the time for consideration of the Application until the end of March. Covid hangover on staff availability probably!
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Coul Links Lives (sort of, part 2)
« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2024, 08:43:06 AM »
Ben

As Adam says, the Mach Dunes development hasn't had a detrimental impact largely because they worked with the various interest groups and took care not to go into the sensitive areas. Same with Dumbarnie.

Niall

That is absolutely not the case. Machrihanish Dunes was built entirely within the SSSI. It avoided certain parts of the SSSI, which is why the course had so much criticism for the length of the walk. Dumbarnie was built on sandy farmland next to dunes. One is an almost entirely found course, the other is 100 per cent shaped. I like Dumbarnie, they did an excellent job, but nothing there is natural. It is very similar to Kingsbarns or Castle Stuart in that regard.

Adam

It absolutely is. I didn't say they didn't go into the SSSI, what I said was they worked with the likes SNH and avoided the sensitive areas. As you pointed out yourself there were areas at Mach Dunes that they didn't touch or weren't allowed to touch.

Niall

Your point is true in its narrow sense, but it is irrelevant. Machrihanish Dunes was, like Trump International, a course built on a SSSI, though they were done very differently, obviously. MD was permitted by guaranteeing that there would be, essentially, no disturbance of the ground, except for building tees and greens. Where native plants were dug up, they had to be replaced facing in the same direction. The level of oversight from SNH was massive -- there was a full time SNH observer during the build, and to be honest at first the relationship between SNH and the golf crew was pretty adversarial. That is why so many parts of the site were ruled off-limits at first, with inevitable consequences for the golf course, most notably for the quality of the walk. What could be done in terms of conditioning was minimal, which is why, over the years, there have been so many complaints from (uninformed) golfers about the conditioning of the golf course. Over time, SNH and the golf team built a relationship and came to understand each others priorities. The golf team realised that SNH was out to protect the site, but not totally prevent the golf course, and the SNH team came to realise that the interests of golf were best served by protecting the site, not by raping it.

This is entirely different from what happened at Trump Aberdeen, where planning was gained by grandstanding to national politicians, and therefore was granted without any of the same conditions of oversight. Consequence: whatever you think of the golf course, the SSSI was destroyed and has had its designation removed, because it does not exist anymore.

Those two projects are, as far as I am aware, the only times in recent years that new golf has been permitted within the boundaries of a SSSI. There is no valuable analogy with Dumbarnie, with Kingsbarns, or with Castle Stuart: fine courses all, but courses built on 'normal' sandy sites and shaped to resemble natural dunes. There was never any attempt to win permission to build within the SSSI at Dumbarnie: the golf course sits on former farmland that was shaped (very well) by Paul Kimber and his team (Paul was the on site manager for the design, which was obviously done by Clive Clark) to resemble natural duneland. I am deliberately avoiding emotive language like 'fake links'. But it is a normal, shaped golf course. MD is not, and Coul if it happens will not be.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2024, 08:49:02 AM by Adam Lawrence »
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Coul Links Lives (sort of, part 2)
« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2024, 08:50:58 AM »
Those documents are the Planning Application. The Council has requested an extension to the time for consideration of the Application until the end of March. Covid hangover on staff availability probably!
F.


Yeah, I was wrong to suggest the formal application had not been made. It isn't immediately obvious, but if you view the planning documents, for example the proposed grading plan, the golf course appears to be designed by the team of Paul Kimber and Niall Glenn. Paul was, obviously, David Kidd's lead associate on the original Machrihanish Dunes project.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Coul Links Lives (sort of, part 2)
« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2024, 09:34:19 AM »
Those documents are the Planning Application. The Council has requested an extension to the time for consideration of the Application until the end of March. Covid hangover on staff availability probably!
F.


Yeah, I was wrong to suggest the formal application had not been made. It isn't immediately obvious, but if you view the planning documents, for example the proposed grading plan, the golf course appears to be designed by the team of Paul Kimber and Niall Glenn. Paul was, obviously, David Kidd's lead associate on the original Machrihanish Dunes project.


And the Castle. Must take a certain mindset to be the guy doing all the work and getting none of the plaudits.
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Coul Links Lives (sort of, part 2)
« Reply #43 on: February 14, 2024, 10:33:46 AM »
Adam
 
Rather than taking a narrow definition of something I think we are essentially talking at cross purposes. You’re referring to how the course is physically built/laid out while I’m talking about the wider  ;)  development process.

 
At both Mach Dunes and Dumbarnie the developer engaged with the statutory consultees such as SNH or Nature Scot as they are now, and I would perceive made or adapted their plans accordingly. That’s in stark contrast to what happened at Balmedie and Embo. That’s the point I was making. Whether one built a course and the other laid out there’s, or that one course is in the SSSI and the other outside doesn’t take away from that point.
 
As an aside, the planning documents for the Mach Dunes development are still on the Argyle and Bute planning portal and it makes interesting reading. I dare say some of the early conversations between development team and planners/SNH etc would have been challenging as they established respective positions and working parameters but it is clear from the documents that they had a fairly good rapport.
 
Niall   
« Last Edit: February 14, 2024, 06:53:18 PM by Niall C »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Coul Links Lives (sort of, part 2)
« Reply #44 on: February 14, 2024, 10:53:43 AM »

Those two projects are, as far as I am aware, the only times in recent years that new golf has been permitted within the boundaries of a SSSI.



Adam:


Actually, the 9th and 10th holes at The Renaissance Club [12th and 13th in the Scottish Open] were built on SSSI land.


We'd hoped to have a couple more holes there, but the main thing SNH were interested in protecting were the mosses growing in colonies out in the native grasses, and there were too many patches of it to work around them and build a fairway.


Luckily, the green at 9 and the fairway on 10 had all been covered with buckthorn, which they insisted we remove, and since there was no moss there we were allowed to convert those areas to fescue.  But that's why there is such a long walk from 9 green to 10 tee . . .

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Coul Links Lives (sort of, part 2)
« Reply #45 on: February 14, 2024, 10:55:21 AM »


 Must take a certain mindset to be the guy doing all the work and getting none of the plaudits.





A key part of the mindset is knowing you're not able to get the commission yourself.  ;)   But eventually if you do well enough that can change.

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Coul Links Lives (sort of, part 2)
« Reply #46 on: February 14, 2024, 11:15:14 AM »


 Must take a certain mindset to be the guy doing all the work and getting none of the plaudits.





A key part of the mindset is knowing you're not able to get the commission yourself.  ;)   But eventually if you do well enough that can change.


Tom,
At least you’re generous enough to not only acknowledge the input of your associates, but to positively broadcast it.
Paul K, for example, has done a ton of work for others for many years now with little to no recognition. I’m sure he’s making a decent living, but we all need even a modicum of credit for our endeavours.
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Coul Links Lives (sort of, part 2)
« Reply #47 on: February 14, 2024, 11:39:51 AM »

Those two projects are, as far as I am aware, the only times in recent years that new golf has been permitted within the boundaries of a SSSI.



Adam:


Actually, the 9th and 10th holes at The Renaissance Club [12th and 13th in the Scottish Open] were built on SSSI land.


We'd hoped to have a couple more holes there, but the main thing SNH were interested in protecting were the mosses growing in colonies out in the native grasses, and there were too many patches of it to work around them and build a fairway.


Luckily, the green at 9 and the fairway on 10 had all been covered with buckthorn, which they insisted we remove, and since there was no moss there we were allowed to convert those areas to fescue.  But that's why there is such a long walk from 9 green to 10 tee . . .

Tom

Off topic, but interesting to me at least. Would you have the 10th tee closer to the 9th green if possible? Perhaps a forward tee?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Coul Links Lives (sort of, part 2)
« Reply #48 on: February 14, 2024, 12:05:18 PM »
Those documents are the Planning Application. The Council has requested an extension to the time for consideration of the Application until the end of March. Covid hangover on staff availability probably!
F.


Yeah, I was wrong to suggest the formal application had not been made. It isn't immediately obvious, but if you view the planning documents, for example the proposed grading plan, the golf course appears to be designed by the team of Paul Kimber and Niall Glenn. Paul was, obviously, David Kidd's lead associate on the original Machrihanish Dunes project.


And the Castle. Must take a certain mindset to be the guy doing all the work and getting none of the plaudits.
F.


I mean you're right, of course, but that is the same across the industry. Tom is very good about sharing credit with his associates, but still, who gets more calls, him or Eric Iverson? How many people have heard of Roger Rulewich as opposed to Robert Trent Jones Sr? I think it has got to have been even more frustrating to be the main guy in a signature pro firm. It takes a special kind of person to be Ed Seay and go to an opening and listen to Arnold talk about how he designed a course.


The guy whose name is on the shingle is always going to get the credit.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Coul Links Lives (sort of, part 2)
« Reply #49 on: February 14, 2024, 02:52:55 PM »

I mean you're right, of course, but that is the same across the industry. Tom is very good about sharing credit with his associates, but still, who gets more calls, him or Eric Iverson? How many people have heard of Roger Rulewich as opposed to Robert Trent Jones Sr? I think it has got to have been even more frustrating to be the main guy in a signature pro firm. It takes a special kind of person to be Ed Seay and go to an opening and listen to Arnold talk about how he designed a course.

The guy whose name is on the shingle is always going to get the credit.


The guy whose name is on the shingle is also generally the one who has to write everyone else's paycheck, so, yes, that carries some weight.


But, a story from my younger days:  the ASGCA annual meeting was in Palm Springs in February 1984, when I was working on the plans for the Stadium Course at PGA West.  So Mr. and Mrs. Dye brought me along into one or two meetings [which wouldn't be allowed now].  At the time one of their big topics was whether or not to let Jack Nicklaus and Arnold Palmer be part of the organization or not.  Mr. Dye was one of the most vocal members in favor of them joining, he thought that the organization would be crazy to fight some of the busiest firms in the industry. 


Meanwhile, one of the most vocal guys AGAINST letting the Tour pros join was . . . Ed Seay!  So, yeah, it took a special kind of guy to be him.