[Ira Fishman]

Our club just installed Pace of Play clocks on the 6th and 12th tees. Does anyone have experience with whether they are helpful or counterproductive?


Thanks.

[Matt Schoolfield]

It’s a hot button issue and I’m a bit exasperated trying to have a good-faith discussion about it on this forum. If the course has done a thorough review of its carry capacity, and subsequent ideal or practicable tee time intervals, I think that it could be helpful.


However, if the course suffers from inadequate carry capacity issues, a course of good-faith fast players will still start to back up by 10am and get worse until the afternoon. This isn’t my opinion, this is demonstrable. When you have what is effectively an assembly line with a known pinch point, you’re going to get backed up simply because more items are arriving faster than they can be processed. Under these conditions, the backup will compound as the day goes on, even if people are plenty quick.

[A.G._Crockett]

Ira, it’s the best system I’ve seen.  It’s very graphic, and it takes a ton of pressure off the marshals.  I think the AJGA uses it, and maybe the NCAA as well?




I saw it first at Rivermont, and Chris Cupit used it to establish a club-wide culture of maintaining pace of play.  As I recall it, if you got a “bad time” on a weekend morning, you couldn’t make a eekend timemtime again until you had a good time on a weekday.  And the first groups out on weekend mornings were told that they were expected to play faster than the posted pace of play, since they wouldn’t be waiting on anybody, and since nobody could go faster than the first groups.  Chris said that the culture became such that groups were almost as interested in their time as their score.




Rivermont doesn’t use this anymore because they now have a GPS system that lets the pro shop monitor every group to see where there might be bottlenecks.  My club tried the clocks, but it turned out that clocks that are really accurate and can withstand all weather conditions are pretty expensive.




If your club is dedicated to the idea, I think you’ll like it.  It just makes things very clear to all groups.

[Tommy Williamsen]

It only really works when a group has the space to play faster. If the course is jammed and slow then it is an irritant.

[A.G._Crockett]

It only really works when a group has the space to play faster. If the course is jammed and slow then it is an irritant.

Tommy, if the starter does his job and makes groups wait until their tee time before teeing off instead of letting the go as soon as the groups ahead hits their second shots on the first hole, then writes down the exact time the tee off and tells them that time, it’s the best system there I’ve seen anywhere. 




If the course gets too crowded, it’s generally because tee times aren’t being maintained and there’s an accordion effect going on, and that’s its own irritant, whether there is a pace of play system or not.

[jeffwarne]

It only really works when a group has the space to play faster. If the course is jammed and slow then it is an irritant.

Tommy, if the starter does his job and makes groups wait until their tee time before teeing off instead of letting the go as soon as the groups ahead hits their second shots on the first hole, then writes down the exact time the tee off and tells them that time, it’s the best system there I’ve seen anywhere. 




If the course gets too crowded, it’s generally because tee times aren’t being maintained and there’s an accordion effect going on, and that’s its own irritant, whether there is a pace of play system or not.

Great observation.
And shocking how irritated people get when you hold them until the appropriate time.(their tee time)or without tee times, when the group in front reaches the putting surface on a par 4. Par 3's as starting holes are great space creators.


It is comical in the offseason when you have 4-5 group outing(that all know each other and have an otherwise empty course) and they race off on top of each other and wait on EVERY SINGLE shot, on an empty golf course

[Ira Fishman]

Those are really helpful points about the first tee. Generally the membership waits until the group ahead is at least near the green (Par 4), but I will mention the importance to the Head Pro.


The messaging around the clocks is that they are set at 4 hours but the expectation is that the first two hours of tee times have a 3:45 pace and conversely those after 2pm are expected to be no worse than 4:15. The latter strikes me a bit of a political compromise because 4:15 probably is close to the norm anyway. I also hope that during the week they set the clocks at a bit faster pace although since Covid the course generally has been crowded except the dew sweeper times (which is when I usually play).


We have 10 minute intervals which are fine on a shortish course with not much water. The culture of the course is okay regarding pace of play, but I am glad that we are trying to improve it.

[A.G._Crockett]

Those are really helpful points about the first tee. Generally the membership waits until the group ahead is at least near the green (Par 4), but I will mention the importance to the Head Pro.


The messaging around the clocks is that they are set at 4 hours but the expectation is that the first two hours of tee times have a 3:45 pace and conversely those after 2pm are expected to be no worse than 4:15. The latter strikes me a bit of a political compromise because 4:15 probably is close to the norm anyway. I also hope that during the week they set the clocks at a bit faster pace although since Covid the course generally has been crowded except the dew sweeper times (which is when I usually play).


We have 10 minute intervals which are fine on a shortish course with not much water. The culture of the course is okay regarding pace of play, but I am glad that we are trying to improve it.

Ira, you might consider giving you head pro Chris Cupit’s name and phone number at Rivermont in Roswell, GA.  Chris is not only the owner-operator of Rivermont, but a past president of the GSGA.  It’s a great club, with at least one other GSGA past president among the membership (Belinda Marsh).  Chris used that system successfully for many years, and I suspect he’d know as much about the trapdoors your club will face as anyone.  He’s also just a great guy who’s always willing to talk golf.

[V. Kmetz]

In the main, the public conversations on this topic are a repeated distraction and purposeless; I ask why don't you just solve whatever problem you're having at your course, and let us know how you did it.  I don't care what the pace of play is at course's I don't play, nor do I care about it on TV where I'm turning on at 3 and know its ending between 6 and 7; that's MY pace of play for watching it...


Moreover to the futility of these outloud redundant conversations, I was a starter/ranger/monitor for 16 of my 42 years in the golf club arena; I have attended to tee times and pace of play intimately and there is no federated solution (of the type I observe in these threads) to your (or is it your course's?) problems that will won't either
a). disaffect the public on whose pleasure the enterprise depends, or...
b) be unacceptable to an existing private culture that must approve such a program...or
c) fail to achieve a meaningful hastening in pace that actually shows up in your public course's bottom line/private satisfaction with operation. 


For after all, what is the point of dropping your course's average time from 4 hr 35 min to 4 hr 15 min if that can't be shown to be a specific boon to the operation?...get more people out per day than would before your program?...increase seasonal revenue, adjusted for price changes...?


Anyways, I decided to relate that the only thing that worked for me to better pace sustainability is to have at least two (three is best at a busy, busy public venue, while one can be enough at a private) dedicated staff who are cycling an ever-expanding route from the early holes back to the tee, until the course is filled and they are making continual loops throughout its middle 14 holes. 


Just their regular habitual visual presence is a reliable start, but moreover you hope that such staff have a knowledge of the course, and know where those choke points are...and know how to let a group know they are getting behind the course's pace guidelines...and know how to say so in unconfrontational ways...like, "just one or two quick ones, and you can forget about it..." ..and know enough to spot a ball for a player...truly player assist.

Clocks and punishments and time stamping and rules may indeed make strides at some places...as may price incentivizing, rewarding and endorsing fast(er) play... but I realized modest success (average time of 4:22 down to 4:14...and slowest 10% of times to 4:35... from 4:48 (small percentage but huge in private club happiness)) by employing a gentle approach where they felt monitored but unobtrusively.  I must mention that my activities were pre-endorsed and well promulgated amongst the members at those places where I handled those duties.  So there was a culture launch to companion whatever tactics I deployed.

[Sean_A]

It's disheartening to read that jammed tee times is the main reason for slow play. I grew up teeing off after the group clears the landing area. Never heard of 4:30 rounds. I belonged to a club that didn't have tee times! Never heard of 4:30 rounds unless a society was on the course. While I understand that longer tee intervals can help pace of play, my question is why do we need it now and not 40 years ago or at no tee time clubs? The underlying issues are deeper than tee times. Golfers have become more selfish and less thoughtful about others. I will give you an example. When I first started playing in the UK, the expectation was that if there is a group on the tee the choice was to look for a ball, but let them through or don't look for the ball for more than a very brief period. This kind of thinking has disappeared and it's a shame.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Slow group? Ranger or equivalent hides in the bushes and when the slow play group are on a green or on a tee remotely turns on the sprinklers. The slow group gets a soaking. Does it speed up the pace of play? No, but they get wet and everyone else gets a good laugh at the slow groups expense.
Atb

[Tommy Williamsen]

I played a course in April with three friends. We were allowed to play unaccompanied. The caddies told us on the practice tee that the club has a tradition of 3:30 rounds. The greens were fast and firm so there was a lot of chipping and four-foot putts. We moved right along, played hit when ready, and walked to the pro shop exactly 3:00 after we tee off. The caddies kept us moving. I do wish we had played slower so I could have savored the course. It felt like eating without tasting the food.

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