[Ally Mcintosh]

There are lots of ways to make a golf course hard.


But for the elite pro’s, width surely is the one thing that makes it easy. First round scoring at LACC (with its restored wide fairways) has been low. We’ll see if the weather will help mute the scoring over the next three days.


Now I know that most of the courses built by the three mentioned are not being built for elite pro play. But which of their courses do you think would challenge the world’s best the most if they were to pitch up? And why?

[Tom_Doak]

Ally:


How do you define "hard"?  Are you interested in things that test the player's abilities, or just the winning score?


Sebonack is the hardest course I have built - especially if it gets windy.  We put in long tees I would normally never consider, because the client wanted them.


My third design, Black Forest, was a very hard course, and my perception of it after we finished convinced me not to go that way again unless the client specifically asked for it -- which that client did -- and even them, first to grill them about whether they really understood what they were asking for.  There is no course in the world where Tour pros comprise the majority of play.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Good question about testing players abilities Vs scoring. I was thinking more about scoring, fully expecting that the golfers might have to think and change their games occasionally to get there.





Incidentally, I am not suggesting you should be building courses just for Tour pro’s, I’m just wondering which one would hold up best to the onslaught if the US Open was landed on it.

[Tom_Doak]

Incidentally, I am not suggesting you should be building courses just for Tour pro’s, I’m just wondering which one would hold up best to the onslaught if the US Open was landed on it.

I might have cost myself the job at Erin Hills by dismissing the owner's thought that he could build a course that would host the U.S. Open.


Generally, though, it's a naive suggestion and a goal that steers too many golf courses into being too hard for everyday play.  I don't really *want* any of my courses to host a U.S. Open, and I've stayed away from consulting on the courses that do, because I think they have their priorities backwards.  All of those historic venues would still be fine U.S. Open sites without all the work they've been doing . . . the winning score just might be a little lower.

[Ben Stephens]

Ally


I thought the pin positions at LACC was quite conservative for the first day's play maybe they were expecting the weather to be different.
Let's see how it goes for the rest of the tournament - there are some very tough potential pin positions out there.


Potentially having 3 par 5s and 5 par 3s encourage lower scoring who knows.


Cheers
Ben

[Ben Stephens]

Ally


Outside the Doak/Coore/Hanse courses. I have always thought that St Million Nicklaus Course is the hardest that I have ever played it is brutal and the walk is tough.


Cheers
Ben

[Carl Rogers]

Tom, in the 20 years I have played Riverfront, occasionally I get paired with what I would call a scratch or near scratch Golfer.


Generally they are not fans of the course.


It took me a while to figure out why.


After hitting 2 very good shots, they are confronted with a difficult to read mid range putt that they often miss.  I believe they think they are entitled to a much easier birdie opportunity.   The course defends against the easy birdie.


Which I think is a pretty good overarching objective.

[Kalen Braley]

Surprised Memorial Park hasn't come up yet.

Even thou its not an original, its basically a new course for all intents.  And if i'm not mistaken its also one of the "toughest" courses they play all year relative to scoring. Perhaps it could even approach US open toughness if they let the rough grow longer and used a few more tricky pin placements.

Is June already too hot in Houston? 

[Tim_Weiman]

Surprised Memorial Park hasn't come up yet.

Even thou its not an original, its basically a new course for all intents.  And if i'm not mistaken its also one of the "toughest" courses they play all year relative to scoring. Perhaps it could even approach US open toughness if they let the rough grow longer and used a few more tricky pin placements.

Is June already too hot in Houston? 

Yes. It is too hot to look out the window!

[Steve Lang]

   too hot in Houston along the 30th parallel???  yeh, at 5PM it was 97 and feel like 104, we're still waiting for sun to go down a little more and it to cool down a little to go swimming!


ONce upon a time, The Black Forest Course at Wilderness Vally was the toughest Doak, IMHO.  I always found that a variety of long and short placement shots were required off the tee to assure a reasonable approach shot could be made, many visuals precipitated mental images of sudden death or hero type recovery shots being next required and the greens all had either multiple levels and/or contours to play off of.  I called it the home of "unfinished business" and it was a tough walk... I do miss it, especially the stretch from 7-13... and #17.  Wish Wilderness Valley could all be brought back...

[Jeff Evagues]

Good question about testing players abilities Vs scoring. I was thinking more about scoring, fully expecting that the golfers might have to think and change their games occasionally to get there.





Incidentally, I am not suggesting you should be building courses just for Tour pro’s, I’m just wondering which one would hold up best to the onslaught if the US Open was landed on it.

I got a chance to play Sebonack a few times the year it opened and put it right behind Oakmont of courses I've played. I still think they could play the U S Open there any week.

[Mike_Clayton]

Ally:


How do you define "hard"?  Are you interested in things that test the player's abilities, or just the winning score?


Sebonack is the hardest course I have built - especially if it gets windy.  We put in long tees I would normally never consider, because the client wanted them.


My third design, Black Forest, was a very hard course, and my perception of it after we finished convinced me not to go that way again unless the client specifically asked for it -- which that client did -- and even them, first to grill them about whether they really understood what they were asking for.  There is no course in the world where Tour pros comprise the majority of play.

I'm not sure which of their courses is hardest - but the two hardest holes to par in Australia are the 8th at Barnbougle Dunes and the 13th at St Andrews Beach.
Of course - of they were par 5s they be considered 'easy holes'.

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