[Ally Mcintosh]

About 15 years ago we eliminated hole signs on the tees and ball washers, although for special events with mostly players who are not members we'll use temporary cardboard tee signs since our hole sequence isn't obvious.  We have a few benches, on four holes, maybe.  We tried in-ground trash cans -- didn't work.  Now we have trash receptacles built into water stations, and we also have a couple of boxes for sand bottle storage.  I'm fine with all of this.  Minimal clutter, but what we have is positive.  None of this is earthshaking stuff.

This is the way golf clubs should think about stuff. Aim for minimal clutter whilst recognising there has to be a practical level of some:


- Hide benches wherever possible and use low lying ones / bespoke ones in keeping with the landscape.


- Remove unnecessary tee signage (I am in the process of doing this at one course I am involved with. I.e. changing all tee-top markets to flush with the ground and only having one guiding hole number facing outwards to those who approach). Use organic materials.


- Double-up uses where possible for things like trash bins, water stations etc…. Hide slightly off a tee, beside a cloaking gorse bush, dune, tree etc…


Many designers won’t consider this important. I see it as a natural extension to hiding access / egress cart paths and choosing the right materials for same.

[John Mayhugh]

What is more visually jarring - benches or fairway stripes?

https://twitter.com/AndyEwence/status/1661421284708712473/photo/4

[Mark Chaplin]

Foursomes benches can be very handy, 8th and 12th at Deal and 6th and 7th at Sandwich spring to mind.


I was happy for a bench as we waited 45 minutes to tee off at the best 16th and best pat 3 on the planet.

[Charlie Goerges]

What is more visually jarring - benches or fairway stripes?

https://twitter.com/AndyEwence/status/1661421284708712473/photo/4

True. We're getting into "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" territory with some of this.

[Chris_Blakely]

After my marathon round following a morning league on a Detroit suburb 9 holer, I can without a doubt say I’m glad each hole had a bench.

[Matt Schoolfield]

Again, I think folks arguing the aesthetics of faux-naturalism of an highly manicured golf course have a very limited idea of what a bench can look and feel like: https://chista.net/furniture/benches/natural-benches

Benches needn't look like the cheap plastic benches you see at most golf courses. They can easily be built into the landscape, and there's a clear argument for having them for ADA needs.

I understand the desire for minimalism, and I respect and generally agree, but if we're going to say things like tee markers/guidance should be gone, the why even have a flagstick? We generally need these things for reasons that are often not intuitive, so why not embrace them and make them beautiful.

[A.G._Crockett]

Since I have a seat attachment on my electric cart, I’m not even sure where the benches are at my club, with one BIG exception.


There is a bench at the first tee, and I try to take a few minutes before I tee off to sit there and appreciate where I am, what I am doing, and who I’m with. I look at the colors, hear the sounds, and consider my good fortune just to be there.  It’s a beautiful view, and a quiet moment to try to adjust my perspective. 


I love that bench.

[jeffwarne]

The clutter police took over years ago.
benches, signs, ballwashers, trashcans-----it all had to go.
But somehow 7-8 sets of tees have flourished, even on short par 3's......


Not sure which is worse, the insistence on no signs("we're a private club, why would we need signs?")
yeah-whatever, except for the outside tournaments, 31 outings, societies, raters, unaccompanied guests etc...who regularly get lost and/or confused.
....
or the all tee markers of similar non descript color leaving you to have to actually guess/walk up to the tee to figure out which one (of many) it is.
[size=78%]  [/size]

Homogonization has many forms.


I'm all for a bench, a trash can and even a sign if it helps people.

[Jeff Schley]

If you guys are against just a bench, I shudder to think of comments on the "comfort station".

[Tim_Weiman]

The clutter police took over years ago.
benches, signs, ballwashers, trashcans-----it all had to go.
But somehow 7-8 sets of tees have flourished, even on short par 3's......


Not sure which is worse, the insistence on no signs("we're a private club, why would we need signs?")
yeah-whatever, except for the outside tournaments, 31 outings, societies, raters, unaccompanied guests etc...who regularly get lost and/or confused.
....
or the all tee markers of similar non descript color leaving you to have to actually guess/walk up to the tee to figure out which one (of many) it is.
[size=78%]  [/size]

Homogonization has many forms.


I'm all for a bench, a trash can and even a sign if it helps people.

Jeff,


I don’t mind a couple benches, maybe on par 3s where play is possibly backed up a bit.


I also think Tom Doak’s story about input from Jack May makes sense. It might be something for Nick Schreiber to think about for Old Barnwell, especially if it can be done without changing the character of the course.

[ward peyronnin]

Employ common sense and things should work out.....Matt is spot on.
Benches where a strenuous climb terminates or a view is revealed or waiting is anticipated.

No Tee markers or hole numbers is so elitist;if you aren't a member of our "club" piss off you don't belong here. Tee markers, when properly positioned can be very helpful for the unfamiliar or less skilled player's orientation and SPEED play and below grade markers aren't as adaptable( although the way the mowing crews cock up their placement may BE an argument for permanent locations but how would one deal with wear and tear?) .
I have had three surgeries on my right side and , God willing, may be able to walk again soem day but no way I could without a place to refresh and I never was a cartballer. Golf is supposed to be fun.

[Tom_Doak]

The clutter police took over years ago.
benches, signs, ballwashers, trashcans-----it all had to go.

I was a precinct captain of the clutter police.  I guess I got that way from knowing the golf course photographers back in the day, who would have to go up ahead and remove every bunker rake from their photos manually, since they couldn't do it digitally back then.  You do not see many benches, signs, ball washers or trash cans in those gorgeous photos in the golf magazines [or on Instagram].


We extrapolated this to taking out clutter in the landscape . . . simplifying mowing lines, and taking out little trees that distracted are the big ones.  That did not mean taking out every tree!


But then everybody else caught on, and of course they took it past the limit of reasonability.  I'm not in favor of homogenizing the roughs to eliminate all natural variation . . . just the opposite, in fact, I think too many courses look too clean and pure outside the fairways. 


Likewise, I'm not anti-bench: every course needs a few.  I just don't want to see one that attracts my attention visually.

[jeffwarne]

The clutter police took over years ago.
benches, signs, ballwashers, trashcans-----it all had to go.

I was a precinct captain of the clutter police.  (no doubt many/most courses needed that treatment 30-40 years ago)


I guess I got that way from knowing the golf course photographers back in the day, who would have to go up ahead and remove every bunker rake from their photos manually, since they couldn't do it digitally back then.  You do not see many benches, signs, ball washers or trash cans in those gorgeous photos in the golf magazines [or on Instagram].
(of course you don't --they don't exist anymore on the courses that get photographed!)


We extrapolated this to taking out clutter in the landscape . . . simplifying mowing lines, and taking out little trees that distracted are the big ones. 


That did not mean taking out every tree!    (so true)


But then everybody else caught on, and of course they took it past the limit of reasonability. (yep)




 I'm not in favor of homogenizing the roughs to eliminate all natural variation . . . just the opposite, in fact, I think too many courses look too clean and pure outside the fairways.  (mono stand rough..ugh-it's friggin' "rough"---my favorite new place I went to this year was yellow with dandelions-in fairways as well)


Likewise, I'm not anti-bench: every course needs a few.  I just don't want to see one that attracts my attention visually.

I broke that post up to highlight all the pure gold in it-my comments are in the(  )

[Matt Schoolfield]

I guess I got that way from knowing the golf course photographers back in the day, who would have to go up ahead and remove every bunker rake from their photos manually, since they couldn't do it digitally back then.  You do not see many benches, signs, ball washers or trash cans in those gorgeous photos in the golf magazines [or on Instagram].

The scourge instagrammable places strikes again. Don't fight free marketing I guess. I feel like I would be very bad at marketing a golf course when reading that.

The elegant efficiency and practicality of a place like this:



being lost to the photographic aesthetics of a completely inefficient place like this drives me crazy:



It's just the cost of doing business I guess.

[Sam Morrow]

Benches are nice but the best feeling during delays on the tee in college tournaments was too lay a towel down on a nice grassy spot under a tree.

[Thomas Dai]

If you guys are against just a bench, I shudder to think of comments on the "comfort station

Anyone fancy a ginger beer?
atb

[Jake Marvin]

While pro-bench, my far bigger grievance is the disappearance of ball washers and garbage cans. You can put these items underground, for God's sake. Even if you couldn't, I can't imagine the visual clutter would be more repulsive than my sweaty, tired butt hiking up to the clubhouse with two beer cans, a bottle of water, and a candy wrapper falling out of my bag as I bounce in my hand a ball that looks like it was dug up by a truffle pig.

[Kalen Braley]

... as I bounce in my hand a ball that looks like it was dug up by a truffle pig.

I've never quite understood this one.  If the course is wet enough to be picking up tons of mud on the ball, why not just reach down and wipe it off in a presumably wet patch of grass/rough, and do final cleanup/drying with the towel?

[Ira Fishman]

Foursomes benches can be very handy, 8th and 12th at Deal and 6th and 7th at Sandwich spring to mind.


I was happy for a bench as we waited 45 minutes to tee off at the best 16th and best pat 3 on the planet.

Ok, I need to ask. What course with the best 16th that is the best par 3 have a 45 minute back up? Cypress Point does not seem to fit the bill unless it was some kind of charity outing.


Ira

[jeffwarne]

While pro-bench, my far bigger grievance is the disappearance of ball washers and garbage cans. You can put these items underground, for God's sake. Even if you couldn't, I can't imagine the visual clutter would be more repulsive than my sweaty, tired butt hiking up to the clubhouse with two beer cans, a bottle of water, and a candy wrapper falling out of my bag as I bounce in my hand a ball that looks like it was dug up by a truffle pig.

LOL-made me smile.

[Nick Schreiber]

The clutter police took over years ago.
benches, signs, ballwashers, trashcans-----it all had to go.
But somehow 7-8 sets of tees have flourished, even on short par 3's......


Not sure which is worse, the insistence on no signs("we're a private club, why would we need signs?")
yeah-whatever, except for the outside tournaments, 31 outings, societies, raters, unaccompanied guests etc...who regularly get lost and/or confused.
....
or the all tee markers of similar non descript color leaving you to have to actually guess/walk up to the tee to figure out which one (of many) it is.
[size=78%]  [/size]

Homogonization has many forms.


I'm all for a bench, a trash can and even a sign if it helps people.

Jeff,


I don’t mind a couple benches, maybe on par 3s where play is possibly backed up a bit.


I also think Tom Doak’s story about input from Jack May makes sense. It might be something for Nick Schreiber to think about for Old Barnwell, especially if it can be done without changing the character of the course.

Tim,


This thread prompted a pretty hearty discussion between Brian/Blake, John Lavelle, Chase Watson, and others on our team. The consensus was that a few strategically placed benches (e.g. 4, 9, 11, and the left tees on 14) that aren't eyesores or disturbances for the maintenance team would be good additions, particularly if we're promoting a walking culture.

As an aside, it's pretty amazing how often posts on this website have sparked conversations amongst our own team at Old Barnwell about our approach to things large and small.


Nick

[Tim Martin]

The clutter police took over years ago.
benches, signs, ballwashers, trashcans-----it all had to go.
But somehow 7-8 sets of tees have flourished, even on short par 3's......


Not sure which is worse, the insistence on no signs("we're a private club, why would we need signs?")
yeah-whatever, except for the outside tournaments, 31 outings, societies, raters, unaccompanied guests etc...who regularly get lost and/or confused.
....
or the all tee markers of similar non descript color leaving you to have to actually guess/walk up to the tee to figure out which one (of many) it is.
[size=78%]  [/size]

Homogonization has many forms.


I'm all for a bench, a trash can and even a sign if it helps people.

Jeff,


I don’t mind a couple benches, maybe on par 3s where play is possibly backed up a bit.


I also think Tom Doak’s story about input from Jack May makes sense. It might be something for Nick Schreiber to think about for Old Barnwell, especially if it can be done without changing the character of the course.

Tim,


This thread prompted a pretty hearty discussion between Brian/Blake, John Lavelle, Chase Watson, and others on our team. The consensus was that a few strategically placed benches (e.g. 4, 9, 11, and the left tees on 14) that aren't eyesores or disturbances for the maintenance team would be good additions, particularly if we're promoting a walking culture.

As an aside, it's pretty amazing how often posts on this website have sparked conversations amongst our own team at Old Barnwell about our approach to things large and small.


Nick

Nick-There are more eyes on Golf Club Atlas than people realize or care to admit as it’s the original “influencer” when it comes to course design.

[Max Prokopy]

Again, I think folks arguing the aesthetics of faux-naturalism of an highly manicured golf course have a very limited idea of what a bench can look and feel like: https://chista.net/furniture/benches/natural-benches

Benches needn't look like the cheap plastic benches you see at most golf courses. They can easily be built into the landscape, and there's a clear argument for having them for ADA needs.

I understand the desire for minimalism, and I respect and generally agree, but if we're going to say things like tee markers/guidance should be gone, the why even have a flagstick? We generally need these things for reasons that are often not intuitive, so why not embrace them and make them beautiful.

Yes, or even a golf bag for that matter.  "Purists" use a bag that stands 3+ in the air made of nylon...

[Jason Topp]

Tim,


This thread prompted a pretty hearty discussion between Brian/Blake, John Lavelle, Chase Watson, and others on our team. The consensus was that a few strategically placed benches (e.g. 4, 9, 11, and the left tees on 14) that aren't eyesores or disturbances for the maintenance team would be good additions, particularly if we're promoting a walking culture.

As an aside, it's pretty amazing how often posts on this website have sparked conversations amongst our own team at Old Barnwell about our approach to things large and small.


Nick

It makes my day to find out a thread I posted here led to action somewhere in the real world.  I don’t know where Old Barnwell is but I hope to enjoy one of your benches some day. 

[Mike Hendren]

Sorry folks.  Trying to post a pic from Flikr but a little bit rusty.  Help please through personal message. 


Thanks,
Sub-Bogey

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