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Tim_Weiman

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Re: GD 2023 Top 100
« Reply #25 on: May 12, 2023, 06:39:03 PM »
I think it has finally worn out its welcome. Honestly, who cares?
John,


Of course, there are clubs, developers and architects who care, but I put more stock in The Confidential Guide and input from people here.
Tim Weiman

Cal Carlisle

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Re: GD 2023 Top 100
« Reply #26 on: May 12, 2023, 06:50:44 PM »
"To some degree, 5 or better makes sense, in that 5's play the "most golf"......but they aren't "most golfers".


I think this is a big part of it. In Jonathan Cummings's book "The Rating Game", he talks about the need for exposure. Without this broad experience, a rater can fall victim to grade creep. Had I rated the best restaurants I had been to in my early twenties, it would be a vastly different list than the one I'd draw up at the age of 50. The twenty-something me would have had PF Chang's in the top 10, now it wouldn't even be a consideration. Having a job that allows you to travel helps quite a bit.

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: GD 2023 Top 100
« Reply #27 on: May 12, 2023, 07:21:42 PM »
"To some degree, 5 or better makes sense, in that 5's play the "most golf"......but they aren't "most golfers".


I think this is a big part of it. In Jonathan Cummings's book "The Rating Game", he talks about the need for exposure. Without this broad experience, a rater can fall victim to grade creep. Had I rated the best restaurants I had been to in my early twenties, it would be a vastly different list than the one I'd draw up at the age of 50. The twenty-something me would have had PF Chang's in the top 10, now it wouldn't even be a consideration. Having a job that allows you to travel helps quite a bit.

I think the issue here is that correlation is not causation. <5's probably do play the "most golf," but that doesn't mean that they are the most traveled, most well read, or even the most thoughtful. It's probably a bad proxy.

What we should expect from <5's reviews are courses liked by people who have a grinding-is-good-and-should-be-rewarded mentality.

When highly academic players with imperfect handicaps, like Tom's may be, aren't qualified to review courses, again, I think the rankings will be skew toward more technical and penal courses in general.

That said, I obviously think this style of ranking is dumb anyway. It's too broad, so it loses any sense of what makes a great course great to different players. It's like trying to rate the best scoop of ice cream in the world, and then arguing about whether chocolate ice cream is better than vanilla in general.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2023, 07:25:04 PM by Matt Schoolfield »
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Cal Carlisle

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Re: GD 2023 Top 100
« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2023, 08:26:56 PM »
"To some degree, 5 or better makes sense, in that 5's play the "most golf"......but they aren't "most golfers".


I think this is a big part of it. In Jonathan Cummings's book "The Rating Game", he talks about the need for exposure. Without this broad experience, a rater can fall victim to grade creep. Had I rated the best restaurants I had been to in my early twenties, it would be a vastly different list than the one I'd draw up at the age of 50. The twenty-something me would have had PF Chang's in the top 10, now it wouldn't even be a consideration. Having a job that allows you to travel helps quite a bit.

I think the issue here is that correlation is not causation. <5's probably do play the "most golf," but that doesn't mean that they are the most traveled, most well read, or even the most thoughtful. It's probably a bad proxy.



But it doesn't mean they aren't, right? Or that they aren't well read, or thoughtful.


Funny thing is I didn't even realize Cummings started the thread.


Matt Schoolfield

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Re: GD 2023 Top 100
« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2023, 09:10:48 PM »
But it doesn't mean they aren't, right? Or that they aren't well read, or thoughtful.
I think my point is that the type of player who can maintain a <5 handicap is a different type of person in general, than your average golfers. The amount of effort required to maintain such a low handicap is probably indicative of a different type of player who probably prefers a different type of course.

In the lecture on games I sited earlier:

Quote
21:30:

Often with low luck games players who have invested different amounts of time will have trouble playing together.

So, I've given here three reasons why you might consider bumping up the luck in your game. To increase variety, to make it so that you can play with a broader range of players, and because it might protect your players egos. There is an argument that perhaps luck should be reduced over time, because as you become a more mature game player, you need that crutch for your ego less, as players become more educated there will be more people of an appropriate skill level, but you should keep in mind that as you reduce this luck you might have trouble expanding your audience because your new players might have a hard time jumping into the game

I think this is well-applicable to golf courses. A forgiving course or courses that punish players more randomly than others, will likely appeal more to higher handicappers than lower handicappers. That isn't to say that higher handicappers can't be well read and take this sort of thing into account, it's just to say that when making the proxy for caring about golf tied to handicap, we should find ourselves with skewed results for high-effort players' preferences.

That is, the type of person who grinds at the range after a weekend round probably has a much different opinion about what makes a good course good than the person who is entirely pleased with being 15 over par. The types of challenges they both enjoy will probably look very different.

It is why I don't like the challenges Bethpage offers. Take the 5th hole. It requires a 180 yard carry, over a massive bunker, just to reach the fairway, but if you take this cautious line but flush it, you're in the rough with no chance at the green. There's just no safe tee shot at all. Supposing a perfect 230 yard shot (again, from the white tees), you need to hit a 195 yard shot to the green, over a massive greenside bunker, to a green completely surrounded by bunkers. You got to just laugh at that point, because the type of investment in skill one need to enjoy that type of challenge is not one I'm willing to invest in my recreational game. You can say it's a half par hole for lower skill players, but again, you still have to accurately carry it 180 yard!
 
« Last Edit: May 12, 2023, 09:40:52 PM by Matt Schoolfield »
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M. Shea Sweeney

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Re: GD 2023 Top 100
« Reply #30 on: May 13, 2023, 09:50:12 AM »
I read the list and tried to find value ; I couldn’t.


Another abysmal take on comparing golf courses.


This list blows.

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