[Tony_Muldoon]

Simple answer to slow play is to be ready to play your shot when it is your turn.


A large percentage of golf today is played using carts and if one player is sitting in the cart while is partner is playing his shot instead of either driving or walking to his ball then time is being wasted.

This has to be at, or near, the top of the list of things that make rounds too slow.

Agree it's a good place to start.
In the UK you can play days without seeing a cart, but you will still have 5+ hr rounds. There's more to do.

[Tim Martin]

https://golf.com/news/patrick-cantlay-slow-player-what-he-thinks/

It’s only going to get worse for this guy. The video of him playing the shot next to the tree is excruciating. Remember the thread whose title was “Do you ever root against someone?” I can say without remorse that I root against Cantlay and all the other turtles out there.

[Max Prokopy]

As many have noted, slow players cause slow golf.
There have always been slow players who dawdle, not ready, sit in the cart, tell a story when it's their turn to hit etc....
Of course all of that has to be addressed, especially at a club or daily fee level.


But few would question that golf has gotten significantly slower over time-especially competitive golf.
IMHO it is because there are simply more and longer processes than there used to be.
If you dispute that, well you simply haven't competed for 50 years as I have.


More process take more time, EVEN if they do it without delay within a prescribed limit.
A brisk player with a minimal process used to do in 15 seconds what now takes 40 with a longer process etc. etc.(often they are moving quite fast through their process-it just has a lot of steps)
Then add in a deliberate player with the same extra processes and it simply takes even more time.


I yield to those and respect those in the discussion who find these processes acceptable, but the only way pace of play can improve is to have discussions about what length of time and processes we all find acceptable.
Occasionally someone will suggest something others find "silly", but the smartest people I've been around taught me a long time ago that outside the box or "silly" questions that challenge the status quo are often the root of solutions.


It just seems to me that telling people that "slow players cause slow play", while true, hasn't worked.

Agree, which has nothing to do with Aimpoint.  In terms of our humble golfing efforts, there's three major types of players "at fault"


1) The ignoramus who doesn't care
2) The ignoramus who thinks their $5 Nassau is a PGA Tour event, and
2) The ignoramus who cares too much by trying to fit all 16 of the latest Golf Digest tips into 9 holes on a Sunday afternoon. 


If there are no consequences then there will be no changes. 

[Niall C]

In the UK you can play days without seeing a cart, but you will still have 5+ hr rounds. There's more to do.

Tony


Agreed. It's definitely getting worse in the UK.


Niall

[Mike Wagner]

Appreciate all the thoughts and feedback-especially form those who know a lot about the subject.


As we learned during The Masters, many things are are  not enforceable if players lie or caddies aren't asked the right questions.
 so(if my pet peeve cheater line rule changed) it's hard for to see why if players know it's a rule, why it would be out of line to ask a player if he was aligning if he took an inordinate amount of time to mark and remark as they do now.
Of course he could just lie, as they evidently occasionally do when their ball moves or advice is given.




and here we sit, watching endless processes that are longer than ever, even by those who do it with proper ettiquette and pace. It's just more to do.
So nothing changes and we continue to excuse away 5 hour rounds in two balls.
And aspiring/new players copy the routines.


Anything can be justified, with very reasoned, experienced and intelligent debate.
It doesn't mean I have to agree, even if I respect your opinion.


Rules, interpretations and enforcement aren't easy.
Sometimes hard things have to be done to enact change.


20 years ago, very few on this board supported a rollback, and almost none supported it off this board.
yet there's about to be one.

This. ^


No way you couldn't tell if someone was using a line on the ball to line up a putt. Make it against the rules, and it goes away. Kinda of like the ridiculous anchoring ban .. you just don't do it.


The pre-shot routines are what's super slow. Combine that with lining up the line on the greens.


Tired of the argument that people can line it quickly, yadda yadda ... maybe, but I've never seen it in a tournament. Slow people do all the slow things. We need to take some of them away.

[Niall C]

Simple answer to slow play is to be ready to play your shot when it is your turn.


A large percentage of golf today is played using carts and if one player is sitting in the cart while is partner is playing his shot instead of either driving or walking to his ball then time is being wasted.

This has to be at, or near, the top of the list of things that make rounds too slow.

Agree it's a good place to start.
In the UK you can play days without seeing a cart, but you will still have 5+ hr rounds. There's more to do.

Tony


100% agree regarding the UK. I sometimes wonder if some folk in the US think that "fast play" is in our genes when in reality it's just the golfing culture over here, and one that is changing here as well. Personally I think we need to get back to teaching new golfers whether they are young or old the basic etiquette.


Niall

[jeffwarne]

Appreciate all the thoughts and feedback-especially form those who know a lot about the subject.


As we learned during The Masters, many things are are  not enforceable if players lie or caddies aren't asked the right questions.
 so(if my pet peeve cheater line rule changed) it's hard for to see why if players know it's a rule, why it would be out of line to ask a player if he was aligning if he took an inordinate amount of time to mark and remark as they do now.
Of course he could just lie, as they evidently occasionally do when their ball moves or advice is given.




and here we sit, watching endless processes that are longer than ever, even by those who do it with proper ettiquette and pace. It's just more to do.
So nothing changes and we continue to excuse away 5 hour rounds in two balls.
And aspiring/new players copy the routines.


Anything can be justified, with very reasoned, experienced and intelligent debate.
It doesn't mean I have to agree, even if I respect your opinion.


Rules, interpretations and enforcement aren't easy.
Sometimes hard things have to be done to enact change.


20 years ago, very few on this board supported a rollback, and almost none supported it off this board.
yet there's about to be one.

This. ^





The pre-shot routines are what's super slow. Combine that with lining up the line on the greens.


Tired of the argument that people can line it quickly, yadda yadda ... maybe, but I've never seen it in a tournament. Slow people do all the slow things. We need to take some of them away.

It's particularly noticeable when playing with good players in the industry on a late night, empty golf course, quick 18 in a four ball(where putts aren't conceded and money is on the line)
Some have so many processes, and they are trying to play fast knowing daylight constraints-they just have so much to do(straddling in 4-5 places, 4 practice swings) they're racing around to try to keep up rather than just eliminating the MULTIPLE processes. They are certainly doing them below 45 seconds, but the rest of the group is taking 5-7 seconds to read, line up and pull the trigger, and they most certainly feel rushed by the peer pressure.

[Tim Martin]

Appreciate all the thoughts and feedback-especially form those who know a lot about the subject.


As we learned during The Masters, many things are are  not enforceable if players lie or caddies aren't asked the right questions.
 so(if my pet peeve cheater line rule changed) it's hard for to see why if players know it's a rule, why it would be out of line to ask a player if he was aligning if he took an inordinate amount of time to mark and remark as they do now.
Of course he could just lie, as they evidently occasionally do when their ball moves or advice is given.




and here we sit, watching endless processes that are longer than ever, even by those who do it with proper ettiquette and pace. It's just more to do.
So nothing changes and we continue to excuse away 5 hour rounds in two balls.
And aspiring/new players copy the routines.


Anything can be justified, with very reasoned, experienced and intelligent debate.
It doesn't mean I have to agree, even if I respect your opinion.


Rules, interpretations and enforcement aren't easy.
Sometimes hard things have to be done to enact change.


20 years ago, very few on this board supported a rollback, and almost none supported it off this board.
yet there's about to be one.

This. ^





The pre-shot routines are what's super slow. Combine that with lining up the line on the greens.


Tired of the argument that people can line it quickly, yadda yadda ... maybe, but I've never seen it in a tournament. Slow people do all the slow things. We need to take some of them away.

It's particularly noticeable when playing with good players in the industry on a late night, empty golf course, quick 18 in a four ball(where putts aren't conceded and money is on the line)
Some have so many processes, and they are trying to play fast knowing daylight constraints-they just have so much to do(straddling in 4-5 places, 4 practice swings) they're racing around to try to keep up rather than just eliminating the MULTIPLE processes. They are certainly doing them below 45 seconds, but the rest of the group is taking 5-7 seconds to read, line up and pull the trigger, and they most certainly feel rushed by the peer pressure.

Jeff-Why are no putts conceded in a four ball game?

[Ira Fishman]

100% agree regarding the UK. I sometimes wonder if some folk in the US think that "fast play" is in our genes when in reality it's just the golfing culture over here, and one that is changing here as well. Personally I think we need to get back to teaching new golfers whether they are young or old the basic etiquette.


Niall



When my wife first starting playing in her 20s, she was nervous because her game as a beginner was not great. I told her to know basic etiquette (not the details of rules yet) and play fast. It is probably the only pointer I have given her in 35+ years of golfing together that she thinks is worth a damn.


Niall is spot on that it is more effective to create culture among new players than change culture.


I have never met a golfer who thought he/she is slow regardless of the evidence to the contrary.


Ira

[Jay Mickle]

Donald Ross's timetable for a round on #2 in 1921. The greens were sand at the time but 2:40 is still moving right along.

[Pete_Pittock]

The professionals on tour have a pretty good repeating putting stroke. It might make sense for them to take a little bit of time getting a perfect alignment with their marker behind their ball on the putting green.        Many amateur golfers do not have a corresponding putting stroke. Taking the same or longer time to get a perfect alignment is mostly wasted time, especially after they miss the putting and go through the same procedure a second time.

[A.G._Crockett]

Appreciate all the thoughts and feedback-especially form those who know a lot about the subject.


As we learned during The Masters, many things are are  not enforceable if players lie or caddies aren't asked the right questions.
 so(if my pet peeve cheater line rule changed) it's hard for to see why if players know it's a rule, why it would be out of line to ask a player if he was aligning if he took an inordinate amount of time to mark and remark as they do now.
Of course he could just lie, as they evidently occasionally do when their ball moves or advice is given.




and here we sit, watching endless processes that are longer than ever, even by those who do it with proper ettiquette and pace. It's just more to do.
So nothing changes and we continue to excuse away 5 hour rounds in two balls.
And aspiring/new players copy the routines.


Anything can be justified, with very reasoned, experienced and intelligent debate.
It doesn't mean I have to agree, even if I respect your opinion.


Rules, interpretations and enforcement aren't easy.
Sometimes hard things have to be done to enact change.


20 years ago, very few on this board supported a rollback, and almost none supported it off this board.
yet there's about to be one.

This. ^





The pre-shot routines are what's super slow. Combine that with lining up the line on the greens.


Tired of the argument that people can line it quickly, yadda yadda ... maybe, but I've never seen it in a tournament. Slow people do all the slow things. We need to take some of them away.

It's particularly noticeable when playing with good players in the industry on a late night, empty golf course, quick 18 in a four ball(where putts aren't conceded and money is on the line)
Some have so many processes, and they are trying to play fast knowing daylight constraints-they just have so much to do(straddling in 4-5 places, 4 practice swings) they're racing around to try to keep up rather than just eliminating the MULTIPLE processes. They are certainly doing them below 45 seconds, but the rest of the group is taking 5-7 seconds to read, line up and pull the trigger, and they most certainly feel rushed by the peer pressure.

Jeff-Why are no putts conceded in a four ball game?

I suspect this was just a terminology mistake?  Obviously, LOTS of putts are conceded in a four ball IF it is match play, and even in four ball play that isn't a match, players pick up when their partner is in with a lower score.
So I assume Jeff meant four players playing a stroke play (or medal play) competition.

[jeffwarne]

Appreciate all the thoughts and feedback-especially form those who know a lot about the subject.


As we learned during The Masters, many things are are  not enforceable if players lie or caddies aren't asked the right questions.
 so(if my pet peeve cheater line rule changed) it's hard for to see why if players know it's a rule, why it would be out of line to ask a player if he was aligning if he took an inordinate amount of time to mark and remark as they do now.
Of course he could just lie, as they evidently occasionally do when their ball moves or advice is given.




and here we sit, watching endless processes that are longer than ever, even by those who do it with proper ettiquette and pace. It's just more to do.
So nothing changes and we continue to excuse away 5 hour rounds in two balls.
And aspiring/new players copy the routines.


Anything can be justified, with very reasoned, experienced and intelligent debate.
It doesn't mean I have to agree, even if I respect your opinion.


Rules, interpretations and enforcement aren't easy.
Sometimes hard things have to be done to enact change.


20 years ago, very few on this board supported a rollback, and almost none supported it off this board.
yet there's about to be one.

This. ^





The pre-shot routines are what's super slow. Combine that with lining up the line on the greens.


Tired of the argument that people can line it quickly, yadda yadda ... maybe, but I've never seen it in a tournament. Slow people do all the slow things. We need to take some of them away.

It's particularly noticeable when playing with good players in the industry on a late night, empty golf course, quick 18 in a four ball(where putts aren't conceded and money is on the line)
Some have so many processes, and they are trying to play fast knowing daylight constraints-they just have so much to do(straddling in 4-5 places, 4 practice swings) they're racing around to try to keep up rather than just eliminating the MULTIPLE processes. They are certainly doing them below 45 seconds, but the rest of the group is taking 5-7 seconds to read, line up and pull the trigger, and they most certainly feel rushed by the peer pressure.

Jeff-Why are no putts conceded in a four ball game?

I suspect this was just a terminology mistake?  Obviously, LOTS of putts are conceded in a four ball IF it is match play, and even in four ball play that isn't a match, players pick up when their partner is in with a lower score.
So I assume Jeff meant four players playing a stroke play (or medal play) competition.

LOL-no while a 4 ball match is being played, everybody has individual matches with everybody else.
Just knock it in quickly rather than waiting for 4 guys to agree on what gimme affects another match.
It does not take long to knock in a 3 footer with minimal processes.

[Ken Moum]

LOL-no while a 4 ball match is being played, everybody has individual matches with everybody else.
Just knock it in quickly rather than waiting for 4 guys to agree on what gimme affects another match.
It does not take long to knock in a 3 footer with minimal processes.

Besides, if it's so obvious that you're going to make it, just go up and put it in the hole.


In my thrice weekly game with 8-16 players (usually) nothing is a gimmee...not even two inches. There's no begging, whining, etc. And we've all missed from inside 6 inches at least once.

[Tony_Muldoon]

The stripes really slow play down when the player backs off to check the alignment is perfect and then repeatedly goes back to the ball and endlessly readjusts it.


To speed play up we need a rule where the ball must be placed on the ground and the hand removed in a single movement, with a maximum of one second allowed to adjust it. Like in chess once the hand is off the ball, it cannot be changed.


The stripes become irrelevant. Keep them if you like, but there will be times you stand over the ball and realise its not straight and you just have to hit it. Placing the ball White side up becomes advantageous.

Won't solve the whole problem but it's a start.

Smart administrators can announce they are abolishing the advice and backstopping rules, oh and there's this new one...

[David Cronan]

True story: At a club where I was once a member, I once played with a 21 handicapper who linedup the stripes on his ball on his tee shots, sometimes even correcting the "line" more than once.


I can't say it was the most enjoyable round I've ever played. Or the quickest.

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