[Paul Rudovsky]

So watch tour players and amateurs (scratch handicaps or 25 handicappers) on the putting green...as they line up putts (50 footers or 50 inchers) and carefully ensure that the lines on their/our golf balls are aligned toward the line they/we picked for their putts (and our putts).  And count the seconds as they/we do that. 

Next think about what would happen if you did essentially the same thing with a 175 yard approach shot but used an alignment stick...2 strokes or loss of hole!  So why the heck is it allowed on a putt?  Never happened until about 20-30 years ago...now it is close to universal.

So how about the USGA and R&A creating a rule making any golf ball with a straight line (in a "two dimensional definition") visible on its surface non-conforming.  The rule would also prohibit the printing of any logo with letters, characters, or objects aligned in a straight line on the ball's surface.  The lawyers can figure out the exact language. 

Assuming a foursome where all four align their their putts today...and 1/3 the time they do it while others are putting...and on tap ins and conceded putts it is not done (say 30% of all putts)...and this procedure takes 7 seconds on average...that is worth almost 8 minutes per round.  The arithmetic is (7 seconds) x (4 players) x (36 putts/player) x (1-30%) x (0.67)/(60 seconds) = 7.9 minutes.  If it is 10 seconds per time it is 11.3 minutes

And if you disagree...please explain why aligning a putt "artificially" should be allowed when aligning a full shot artificially is not!

Finally, in terms of full disclosure, I have never violated this proposed rule! 

[jeffwarne]

agreed Paul.
They are being used as alignment aids.


We live in a world where anchoring with certain body parts(an innovation of technique) is banned, but CLEARLY using an alignment aid(and stating its intention) is OK, as is CLEARLY touching(feeling) the line with one's feet, and the caddie as well (Aimpoint) is OK.
Yet touch the intended line with a finger to point it out, or use a shaft for alignment, and suddenly it's an infraction


Whether you agree with the above or not, both are additional steps in the process, and no matter how fast one does them, they slow the game.(at least in terms of what it could be)


The whataboutisms in golf are what killed common sense long ago.


Lines on a ball and feeling lines with your feet are wonderful teaching and practice tools that have no place during a round.

[Ben Hollerbach]

I personally don't use a line or any other aid on my ball while putting. I find that it often leads to more doubt than confidence in my putting. Unless removing the line on the ball is step one of 50 to combat slow play, it would seem at first glance to be a misplaced disruption in order to save just 8 minutes per foursome.

Moving from 8 minute to 10 minute intervals in tee times can reduce the time to play a round of golf by 15-30 minutes. Doing so does not require a re-writing of the rules and changes to the equipment.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

So why the heck is it allowed on a putt?

Because you can replace a ball in any orientation. If you can replace one in the fairway, you can align it, too. Some people align their ball on the tee.

So how about the USGA and R&A creating a rule making any golf ball with a straight line (in a "two dimensional definition") visible on its surface non-conforming.

Because that wouldn't stop anything. People can just align the words "<PROV1X>" or whatever. And you're allowed to mark your ball, so now you have to mark it without a "straight" line? And the ball is curved, so so no line is truly "straight."

Writing rules is hard.

The rule would also prohibit the printing of any logo with letters, characters, or objects aligned in a straight line on the ball's surface. The lawyers can figure out the exact language.

Ha, good luck with that.

And if you disagree...please explain why aligning a putt "artificially" should be allowed when aligning a full shot artificially is not!

Answered above. You can't use an alignment stick on the putting green, either.

[Sean_A]

See Decision 20-3a/2 Using Line on Ball for Alignment

May a player draw a line on the ball and, when replacing the ball, position the ball so that the line or the trademark on the ball is aimed to indicate the line of the ball?

YES

Of course, now you are allowed to touch the line of the putt. So the above Decision doesn't matter.

14.2c/1 is clear on the matter. 

Its difficult, for me at least, to understand why this would be an issue. I for one am glad to see some rules go which required a decision. Once the decision is made the language of the rule sholud be altered or the rule eliminated which reflects the decision.

Ciao

[Wayne_Kozun]

We've been through this before in a 47 page thread:  https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,29286.0.html
You can align the ball with your intended putt line without taking any extra time.

[John Kavanaugh]

First time visitors to great courses are most often slower than members. Therein lies the problem.

[jeffwarne]

I personally don't use a line or any other aid on my ball while putting. I find that it often leads to more doubt than confidence in my putting. Unless removing the line on the ball is step one of 50 to combat slow play, it would seem at first glance to be a misplaced disruption in order to save just 8 minutes per foursome.

Moving from 8 minute to 10 minute intervals in tee times can reduce the time to play a round of golf by 15-30 minutes. Doing so does not require a re-writing of the rules and changes to the equipment.

Why not both?
And yes, there are 50 steps that need to be implemented/educated.
If we're really taliking about 8 minutes per group for ball marking/lines than I'm definitely all for it!


RE: 8 vs. 10 minutes for tee times.
Who does 8 minute tee times for thre/four balls anyway?
That would seem low hanging fruit that should've been addressed by any organization/club years ago.
and my proposal does NOT require rewriting the rules, just enforcing them.(alignment aids are not allowed)




Rules ARE hard, but I promise you, if you want to change a rule re: balls and lines, there are solutions.
How about the following:
"the ball shall be not be put into play oriented with any visible marking or line in the specific direction of the intended start line"
i.e. you do what we non aimers do-white part up.
It's still a game of honor-people surely could follow that.




Whataboutisms continue to plague the game.


The point is, competitive golf takes time and every single process/step that we can eliminate saves time, especially those that violate the rules(or at least the spirit)
4 practice swings take time as well-I'm all for eliminating that too(but that WOULD require rewriting the rules).
Processes, even if done in the "prescribed" period, take way too long.
The "prescribed" period could be so much shorter. And should be.

[Tim Martin]

To Erik’s point you can line up the ProV1 script or any other manufacturer name/model script on the line you want to putt. If you have the ball oriented in your hand all you have to do is set down on your intended line with virtually no extra time or fanfare. I’ve been placing the ball in this fashion for north of forty years and don’t ever remember any comment or issue from playing partners/opponents regarding same.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

and my proposal does NOT require rewriting the rules, just enforcing them.(alignment aids are not allowed)

They are allowed when putting (or replacing a ball), because those aren't classified as "alignment aids." Also, a caddie can indicate the line of play by going and standing at a place. He can't stay there, but that's an "alignment aid" under your broad definition, it seems.

"the ball shall be not be put into play oriented with any visible marking or line in the specific direction of the intended start line"

Great. I'll set a ball down with a line that's perpendicular to the starting line. And, you're now going to penalize someone who points a logo on a ball toward the hole, or the identifying line they've drawn, or whatever… accidentally, you might be in for some trouble? Cuz if you don't intend to punish that person (the accidental aligner), you're going to have to be a mind-reader, too, and add "intent" into the language of your "rule."

[Max Prokopy]

but CLEARLY using an alignment aid(and stating its intention) is OK, as is CLEARLY touching(feeling) the line with one's feet, and the caddie as well (Aimpoint) is OK.

This one I don't get.  Aimpont is another way to gauge the grade of the terrain.  You can't ban it without also banning the use of one's eyes or imagination.

[jeffwarne]

To Erik’s point you can line up the ProV1 script or any other manufacturer name/model script on the line you want to putt. If you have the ball oriented in your hand all you have to do is set down on your intended line with virtually no extra time or fanfare. I’ve been placing the ball in this fashion for north of forty years and don’t ever remember any comment or issue from playing partners/opponents regarding same.

There's no doubt it has been interpreted as legal(it's still an alignment aid IMHO and should not be)


No one notices because you do the process so quickly with no fanfare, as most processes were 40 years ago.
It's pretty noticeable in a professional event(or any jr or amateur event now) when every single putt is a read, re-align, adjusts reread, re-align.
That makes perfect sense because as you evelaute a putt, even over the ball as you are about to strike it, you are processing and feeling information as you address the ball-and sometimes(or even often) you realize your initial intended line needs to change.
I completely see why if the player's line changes slightly, he needs to adjust the line on the ball.
(that's exactly why I use the "white side" so I don't have that conflict)

[jeffwarne]

and my proposal does NOT require rewriting the rules, just enforcing them.(alignment aids are not allowed)

They are allowed when putting (or replacing a ball), because those aren't classified as "alignment aids." Also, a caddie can indicate the line of play by going and standing at a place. He can't stay there, but that's an "alignment aid" under your broad definition, it seems.

"the ball shall be not be put into play oriented with any visible marking or line in the specific direction of the intended start line"

Great. I'll set a ball down with a line that's perpendicular to the starting line. And, you're now going to penalize someone who points a logo on a ball toward the hole, or the identifying line they've drawn, or whatever… accidentally, you might be in for some trouble? Cuz if you don't intend to punish that person (the accidental aligner), you're going to have to be a mind-reader, too, and add "intent" into the language of your "rule."

Director of Whataboutisms chimes in right on schedule [size=78%].[/size]
It's a game of honor.
You "accidentally" have your logo up and you get questioned?
You explain it was not aligning and your past and future patterns will clearly demonstrate whether it was an accudent.
Not sure how if you're told to align it "solid white up" you'd do that, but I'd give the benefit of the doubt in one instance.




We just watched Koepka's caddie clearly cheat and that was explained away, I'm pretty sure an accidental logo up could be explained-once.


A caddie indicating a line is not an alignment aid as he is required to move.A line on a ball aimimg exacvtly at the start line is an alignment aid and is the same as a club on then ground on the target line as I hit the shot(IMHO)

[jeffwarne]

but CLEARLY using an alignment aid(and stating its intention) is OK, as is CLEARLY touching(feeling) the line with one's feet, and the caddie as well (Aimpoint) is OK.

This one I don't get.  Aimpont is another way to gauge the grade of the terrain.  You can't ban it without also banning the use of one's eyes or imagination.

It's called "Reading" the putt.
Not feeling


I further resent all the footprints created by player and caddie between them and the hole by straddling the entire length of the putt.
Of course some are more sensitive to this and pace of play than others.


Like any rule, it "could" be hard to enforce and of course you could "accidentally" straddle your line.
Again, a game of honor-no harm no fould for accidentally straddling, depending upon your past and further actions.
The ettiquette of walking between the hole and the putt is another matter (IMHO)

[Ben Hollerbach]

RE: 8 vs. 10 minutes for tee times.
Who does 8 minute tee times for thre/four balls anyway?
That would seem low hanging fruit that should've been addressed by any organization/club years ago.
and my proposal does NOT require rewriting the rules, just enforcing them.(alignment aids are not allowed)

Just a few years ago 8 minute tee times were the most common intervals across the US, especially for public courses. Covid provided an experimental time that allowed courses to test 10, 12, even 15 minute intervals. Some increased their time intervals permanently, many, if not most, have not.

I would agree that it is low hanging fruit, but if their is enough evidence that both 8 minute intervals hinder place of play and also can cost clubs potential revenue, the fruit isn't being picked. So why start higher in the tree.

The OP also specifically brought up changing the rules:

So how about the USGA and R&A creating a rule making any golf ball with a straight line (in a "two dimensional definition") visible on its surface non-conforming.  The rule would also prohibit the printing of any logo with letters, characters, or objects aligned in a straight line on the ball's surface.  The lawyers can figure out the exact language. 

[Sean_A]

We can make all sorts of rules which quicken play in a manner which don't effect the proposer. In my experience, slow play is caused by slow players. Golfers can do the same things and play at very different paces. The bottom line is some folks simply don't care about others, at least not to the degree which will prompt a change in behaviour. If we are really concerned about slow play the only real solution is penalties for finishing beyond the allotted time. This gives leeway for all to do whatever they want so long as they finish on time. There would be growing pains and people would get caught cross fire, but that would happen anyway by banning alignment lines, practice swings, laying on the green (wtf is up with?), straddling the line, confering with the caddie etc etc. Knee jerk responses are rarely real solutions.

Ciao

[Tim Martin]

RE: 8 vs. 10 minutes for tee times.
Who does 8 minute tee times for thre/four balls anyway?
That would seem low hanging fruit that should've been addressed by any organization/club years ago.
and my proposal does NOT require rewriting the rules, just enforcing them.(alignment aids are not allowed)

Just a few years ago 8 minute tee times were the most common intervals across the US, especially for public courses. Covid provided an experimental time that allowed courses to test 10, 12, even 15 minute intervals. Some increased their time intervals permanently, many, if not most, have not.

I would agree that it is low hanging fruit, but if their is enough evidence that both 8 minute intervals hinder place of play and also can cost clubs potential revenue, the fruit isn't being picked. So why start higher in the tree.

The OP also specifically brought up changing the rules:

So how about the USGA and R&A creating a rule making any golf ball with a straight line (in a "two dimensional definition") visible on its surface non-conforming.  The rule would also prohibit the printing of any logo with letters, characters, or objects aligned in a straight line on the ball's surface.  The lawyers can figure out the exact language. 

Ben-The 8 minute intervals can definitely scare players away especially after one bad experience with a five hour plus round as a result.

[Kyle Harris]

This is descending into some form of madness and a bunch of "solutions" in search of a problem.


The overarching reason why you don't regulate this is that the Teeing Area and Putting Green have *always* given the player different rights than the General Area. A good number of those rights involve manipulating the ball and the lie to your advantage. I'd argue being able to do so is as fundamental to the game as not being able to do so in the General Area.

To change those rights is to change something that has been fundamental to the game for some time. Jeff Warne talks about all the "whataboutisms" and this is certainly one of them. It just so happens that we are picking out pet annoyances and trying to ramrod a square peg solution into a round cannon in attempt to fire it over a wall to a completely unrelated problem and having it land in a star shaped hole we can't see.

What's next? Regulating bag organization so it's easier for a caddy to see which club you hit and broadcast it to the cameraman in an attempt to speed up play?

[Max Prokopy]

but CLEARLY using an alignment aid(and stating its intention) is OK, as is CLEARLY touching(feeling) the line with one's feet, and the caddie as well (Aimpoint) is OK.

This one I don't get.  Aimpont is another way to gauge the grade of the terrain.  You can't ban it without also banning the use of one's eyes or imagination.

It's called "Reading" the putt.
Not feeling


I further resent all the footprints created by player and caddie between them and the hole by straddling the entire length of the putt.
Of course some are more sensitive to this and pace of play than others.

No offense but you are completely mistaken about how visual perception works.  Perhaps check out the Ames room: [size=78%]Ramachandran - Ames room illusion explained - YouTube[/size]


I don't see how footprints affects your original description of a line on the ball affecting pace of play.  You could say the same for divots.

[Jeff Segol]

My group in our recent new member tournament was penalized for slow play. Why? Because one of the new members couldn't play. He had the worst reverse pivot I've ever seen, and probably lost a ball on every other hole. In my opinion, one of the ways to address slow play is to require new players to pass a test on etiquette, and show some reasonable amount of playing ability, before they're allowed to go out on the course. I believe this is a requirement in some countries.


I tend to agree that slow play is caused by slow players. I didn't support the anchoring ban, and I wouldn't support what you guys are talking about, because I think anything that's currently within the rules, that anyone can do, should be allowed in support of trying to get better. Otherwise, you drive people out of the game.

[JohnVDB]

Well said Kyle.
It's Deja Vu all over again. Did Shivas start posting here again?
I wasn't going to get into this as its an endless rathole, but the proposed "solutions" are so impractical and impossible to enforce as to be laughable. As well as doing little to nothing to improve pace of play.
Tell me I can't line up a line at the hole, ok, I'll put it at 90 degrees to my line so I can line my putter face up to the line.
Say I have to have white showing at the top.  Ok, I'll put the line at the back of the ball.  I'll still be able to see part it.

I took a quick look at a Pro-V1 and I think I could even line up the dimples, although that would probably be slower.
Do we need to zoom in a camera on every putt to make sure there is only white showing?

What happens if I chip my ball to the hole or hit my first putt up there and don't lift the ball.  Do I get penalized if the line happens to be pointing the wrong way?
All the questions above were rhetorical.
There are so many factors that slow down play it is crazy to try to single out one.  For example, we all love tees that are close to the preceding green, but that is a factor in slowing play. Players won't hit to the green if the players are teeing off right there in front of them or walking off the tee behind the green. Players on the tee won't tee off if there is a chance that the crowd will cheer for a good shot to the green when they're in their backswing.

If you want to speed up play, the first thing that has to happen is to convince the PGA Tour that they want to penalize players.  They don't. After that they should change their policy.
When I worked the Futures Tour, the first year we used policies similar to the tour.  We had to ask the players to speed up, then we had to warn them, then we had to tell them they were being timed, then when a player got a bad time we had to give them a warning.  Finally, if they got a second bad time we could penalize them two strokes. And then there was the time I tried to penalize a player and she claimed she hadn't heard me tell her they were on the clock so we rescinded the penalty.

The second year, we changed the policy. We told the players there were no more warnings.  They were expected to notice they were behind and catch up. We didn't tell them they were being timed, but if we were following them, they could ask and we'd tell them.  The first bad time was a one-stroke penalty, no warnings. We gave out 20 penalties in 19 events. More importantly, we knocked 25 minutes off the average time of a round. Most of the players we penalized hadn't bothered reading the documentation about the new policy and only one player was stupid enough to get penalized twice.

The second thing is to convince the players they need to be professional.  At the 2010 US Open at Pebble Beach, I was the walking referee with Tiger, Ernie and Lee Westwood in the second round.  We started on #10. We had a couple of rulings and some crowd issues. When we got to #4, the hole was open.  Ernie looked at the other two and said, "We're behind, lets go".  They picked up the pace without me needing to say anything and by the time we got to #6 tee we were waiting. That is professional behaviour and the tour players need to exhibit more of it. If it takes penalties to make that happen so be it.

[Anthony Butler]

I took a quick look at a Pro-V1 and I think I could even line up the dimples, although that would probably be slower.

When the Pro V1 first came onto the market, Jack Nicklaus claimed if you teed up the 'Pro V1" on the side of the ball with your intended line of play it was good for another 10-15yds off the driver. He referred to this as 'seaming'. The Pro V1 at that time, did appear to be two half spheres joined together. I'm not sure if any independent testing confirmed this theory.

The obsessive positioning of the line of the ball with the intended starting line of the putt - along with the straddling the line as part of Aim Point Express - does get tiresome towards the end of tournaments. Spieth and Greller are the prime examples of that - often conducting a full topographical survey for a 3ft putt..

[Stewart Abramson]

Assuming a foursome where all four align their their putts today...and 1/3 the time they do it while others are putting...and on tap ins and conceded putts it is not done (say 30% of all putts)...and this procedure takes 7 seconds on average...that is worth almost 8 minutes per round.  The arithmetic is (7 seconds) x (4 players) x (36 putts/player) x (1-30%) x (0.67)/(60 seconds) = 7.9 minutes.  If it is 10 seconds per time it is 11.3 minutes

I don't think your assumptions are close to reality. In my experience, players who use the line on their putts have their ball in place before it's their turn to putt closer to 90+% of the time than 33%. Their are many reasons for slow play; using a line when one places their ball down on the green is probably the 100th on the list in significance.

[A.G._Crockett]

Jeff,
Fwiw, when I was taught AimPoint, first by video and later in a lesson, I was taught NOT to straddle the line of the putt, but rather to go to the low side and read it. 


Also, fwiw, unless you go out first in the morning, guys have been walking everywhere on the green, and I doubt you see guys that use AimPoint walking in anyone’s line before that person hits a putt.


But here’s the bottom line, and I write this in EVERY slow play thread about ANY method for playing the game.  Slow golfers are slow because they are SLOW!  They aren’t slow because of their pre shot routine, or AimPoint, or the line on the ball, or anything else, and every time you see a guy who is slow doing that stuff, you’ve ignored a bunch of guys doing the exact same stuff because they did it fast while other guys were playing their shots.


Slow play is a personal habit based on the mistaken belief that your time is more important than mine, just like with people who are habitually late. My father wasn’t late to everything in his life because of any particular thing that he did; he was late because he just didn’t give a damn about anyone else’s time. 


Slow players are slow,no matter what they do or do not do as far as methods for playing the game.  Give everyone a solid white ball, and the slow guys will still be slow.

[Garland Bayley]

...
Next think about what would happen if you did essentially the same thing with a 175 yard approach shot but used an alignment stick...2 strokes or loss of hole!  So why the heck is it allowed on a putt?  Never happened until about 20-30 years ago...now it is close to universal.
...

I was taught almost 60 years ago to line up the logo on the ball to the line of the putt. So I think this lining up thing has been going on more that 20-30 years. What I notice now is that they set their ball on their line, stand up check it, reset their ball, stand up check it, reset their ball, stand up check it, reset their ball, stand up check it, reset their ball, stand up check it, reset their ball, stand up check it, reset their ball, stand up check it, reset their ball, stand up check it, reset their ball, stand up check it, reset their ball, stand up check it, reset their ball, stand up check it, reset their ball, stand up check it, reset their ball, stand up check it, reset their ball, stand up check it, reset their ball, stand up check it, reset their ball, stand up check it, reset their ball, stand up check it, reset their ball, stand up check it, reset their ball, stand up check it, reset their ball, stand up check it, reset their ball, stand up check it, etc.

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