[John Kavanaugh]

I’d rather be a man who believes a liar on faith than one who questions a man on conjecture.

[Charlie Goerges]

So there is no audio of Woodland asking what club he hit. Then there’s really nothing to be done about it, he could have been saying what time they were heading to the bar afterwards or countless other things. I don’t even like Brooks and hope LIV goes down in flames, but it feels overblown without any additional evidence.

[Sean_A]

Just another rules controversy/dubious rule which makes golf look to be a stupid game. I am all for it because our courses are too crowded. Shrink the game.

Ciao

[Rob Marshall]

So there is no audio of Woodland asking what club he hit. Then there’s really nothing to be done about it, he could have been saying what time they were heading to the bar afterwards or countless other things. I don’t even like Brooks and hope LIV goes down in flames, but it feels overblown without any additional evidence.

No one is saying Woodland asked for advice. He doesn’t  need to ask for anything for it be a penalty on Keopka. Do you understand the rule? They have all the evidence they need.

[Steve Lapper]

Before we accuse anyone of impacting any rules, do we know where the on-course TV announcer walking with the group or the behind-the-player TV cameraman assigned to the hole were located?

It's pretty common practice to have the caddy signal to the tower pundits what club their guy hit.

Bruce,


  Brook's caddy, with explicit vocalization, notified Woodland's caddy what club Kopeka used. He spoke it not once, but twice! It was quickly ascertained that he was facing straight down the fairway and looking straight at Woodland's caddy (who was strategizing his next shot). Do you think he was talking to the submarine tower mike in the pond?

  This was absolutely not an example of a subtle finger-count of club (played) signaled to any TV reporter or tower. There really is no gray area here. Both blatant and indefensible if we are to adhere to USGA-R&A rules (premise of ANGC Rules Committee). Claiming that "its done all the time" is such a BS standard. Relying on player honesty in the age of up-close video, is equally insane. Professional golf is riddled with superstars who have openly lied (Player, Singh, Reed, et.al.) when questioned about rules violations.


  Why is it that we now so quickly and easily absolve people of dishonesty and deceit? It is bad enough this has become so prevalent throughout the world of politics, businesses and other less decent sports....its now common practice at one of our favorite golf majors.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

So there is no audio of Woodland asking what club he hit. Then there’s really nothing to be done about it

Asking is a penalty, answering (or just giving) is a penalty.

[archie_struthers]

 


I was caddying in a Philadelphia PGA Event as a 15 year old when one of the other players in the group hit his ball in a large hazard at Woodcrest CC In NJ (Flynn 1929).  It was a large red staked area and we were all looking for the ball as you sometime could hit it from the creek bank. My player Tim DeBaufre looked over way to the left and saw I had left his bag in a dry spot in the hazard (note he hadn't hit it in there)   He looked at me pointed and said , you know that's a one shot penalty for me.


They have since changed that silly rule but man did I feel like a loser. To his credit he patted me on the back on the next hole and said no worries , now you know!


Great guy ....never forget him

[Jeff Schley]

I was caddying in a Philadelphia PGA Event as a 15 year old when one of the other players in the group hit his ball in a large hazard at Woodcrest CC In NJ (Flynn 1929).  It was a large red staked area and we were all looking for the ball as you sometime could hit it from the creek bank. My player Tim DeBaufre looked over way to the left and saw I had left his bag in a dry spot in the hazard (note he hadn't hit it in there)   He looked at me pointed and said , you know that's a one shot penalty for me.


They have since changed that silly rule but man did I feel like a loser. To his credit he patted me on the back on the next hole and said no worries , now you know!


Great guy ....never forget him

Thanks Archie for that story, life lessons don't have to come with tongue lashings. Kudos to Mr. DeBaufre.

[Andrew Harvie]

It happens all the time at any level, but especially the pro tours where most people generally hit it the same number (someone might be a club long or a club short, but very rarely is anyone 2 on either side). Usually, though, you just look in the bag without touching. Some players ask what floor their room in the hotel is at or how many apples they pick up at once or something, which I like less. I'm surprised these caddies would be so blatantly obvious. The above is not cheating (mostly the first, the second is for sure questionable), but what Koepka's caddie did is clearly in violation of the rules of golf

[Charlie Goerges]

So there is no audio of Woodland asking what club he hit. Then there’s really nothing to be done about it, he could have been saying what time they were heading to the bar afterwards or countless other things. I don’t even like Brooks and hope LIV goes down in flames, but it feels overblown without any additional evidence.

No one is saying Woodland asked for advice. He doesn’t  need to ask for anything for it be a penalty on Keopka. Do you understand the rule? They have all the evidence they need.

I am aware he doesn’t need to have been asked, my point is that (according to what I’ve seen) only the word/gesture “5” was expressed. That could have been referring to anything. I agree the most likely thing was a club, but do we want to be DQing someone on something that is “most likely”?


I also agree with Sean that the advice rule is dumb. My high school coach was a stickler about those things, and at that level there were often no practice rounds, which often led to a weird form of legalese when trying to navigate a course for the first time. I would only ask factual questions, but answers were often given in violation of the language of the advice rule. I could have called quite a few penalties on people who had no idea of the advice rule. I never did because I didn’t want to end up tossed into the nearest water hazard.

[John Blain]

So there is no audio of Woodland asking what club he hit. Then there’s really nothing to be done about it, he could have been saying what time they were heading to the bar afterwards or countless other things. I don’t even like Brooks and hope LIV goes down in flames, but it feels overblown without any additional evidence.

No one is saying Woodland asked for advice. He doesn’t  need to ask for anything for it be a penalty on Keopka. Do you understand the rule? They have all the evidence they need.

I am aware he doesn’t need to have been asked, my point is that (according to what I’ve seen) only the word/gesture “5” was expressed. That could have been referring to anything. I agree the most likely thing was a club, but do we want to be DQing someone on something that is “most likely”?


I also agree with Sean that the advice rule is dumb. My high school coach was a stickler about those things, and at that level there were often no practice rounds, which often led to a weird form of legalese when trying to navigate a course for the first time. I would only ask factual questions, but answers were often given in violation of the language of the advice rule. I could have called quite a few penalties on people who had no idea of the advice rule. I never did because I didn’t want to end up tossed into the nearest water hazard.

You clearly do not understand the rule. Did you know that the caddy is an extensiion of the player? So, if the caddy of Brooks Koepka looks directly at the caddy of Gary Woodland and says "five" it is a 2-shot penalty on Koepka for giving advice.
This was a no-brainer violation and shame on AGNC for letting it slide.

[Ken Moum]

Given the fairly recent discussions about pros "backstopping" for their bros, does this surprise anyone?


Nevertheless,  just when my opinion of tour pros couldn't get much lower...is has.


I play three times a week with a bunch of old guys like me and on my first day, the leader said,  "We play by the rules-all of them, we play the ball down and no gimmees."


That afternoon I told my wife, "I have met my people."

[Charlie Goerges]

So there is no audio of Woodland asking what club he hit. Then there’s really nothing to be done about it, he could have been saying what time they were heading to the bar afterwards or countless other things. I don’t even like Brooks and hope LIV goes down in flames, but it feels overblown without any additional evidence.

No one is saying Woodland asked for advice. He doesn’t  need to ask for anything for it be a penalty on Keopka. Do you understand the rule? They have all the evidence they need.

I am aware he doesn’t need to have been asked, my point is that (according to what I’ve seen) only the word/gesture “5” was expressed. That could have been referring to anything. I agree the most likely thing was a club, but do we want to be DQing someone on something that is “most likely”?


I also agree with Sean that the advice rule is dumb. My high school coach was a stickler about those things, and at that level there were often no practice rounds, which often led to a weird form of legalese when trying to navigate a course for the first time. I would only ask factual questions, but answers were often given in violation of the language of the advice rule. I could have called quite a few penalties on people who had no idea of the advice rule. I never did because I didn’t want to end up tossed into the nearest water hazard.

You clearly do not understand the rule. Did you know that the caddy is an extensiion of the player? So, if the caddy of Brooks Koepka looks directly at the caddy of Gary Woodland and says "five" it is a 2-shot penalty on Koepka for giving advice.
This was a no-brainer violation and shame on AGNC for letting it slide.

I’m aware of that as well. The word “five” can refer to things other than club numbers, such as the number of bathrooms in Brooks’ house rental this week. My only point is we can’t be sure it was advice without more evidence than has been given thus far.

[Jim_Coleman]

   It’s almost a given that, unless the player confesses, he “gets the benefit of the doubt.”  This may work on the tour, it wouldn’t work in a courtroom, where only “reasonable doubt” exonerates. How many bathrooms in Koepka’s house isn’t reasonable. Reed has benefited from this standard (embedded ball) as has Tiger (where ball crossed hazard at Players).

[John Kavanaugh]

The rules a built to help the player.

[Charlie Goerges]

   It’s almost a given that, unless the player confesses, he “gets the benefit of the doubt.”  This may work on the tour, it wouldn’t work in a courtroom, where only “reasonable doubt” exonerates. How many bathrooms in Koepka’s house isn’t reasonable. Reed has benefited from this standard (embedded ball) as has Tiger (where ball crossed hazard at Players).

Thanks Jim, that’s well-put. It’s just the way it is in the game, and it’s not a court of law. And I doubt we would want it to be. Unfortunately some people take advantage of it as you mentioned.

[Charlie Goerges]

Here’s something I’m curious about. Why on earth are players helping out the people they’re competing against? If it’s as prevalent as many are saying (and I believe it) it’s extremely confusing to me.

[John Kavanaugh]

Here’s something I’m curious about. Why on earth are players helping out the people they’re competing against? If it’s as prevalent as many are saying (and I believe it) it’s extremely confusing to me.

Gentlemen at the highest level always help their opponents. You fight like a man.

[Kalen Braley]

At this point, the only thing I'd find interesting..

Is what was said when the Masters officials spoke with Brooks and his caddie.  What possible explanation could they have given?  And how in the hell could the green coats have bought it given they have direct video evidence, with only one plausible context that fits.

P.S Hard to imagine in the heat of the moment Brooks caddie felt compelled to blurt out the number of bathrooms in Brooks VRBO not once... but twice. 

[Charlie Goerges]

At this point, the only thing I'd find interesting..

Is what was said when the Masters officials spoke with Brooks and his caddie.  What possible explanation could they have given?  And how in the hell could the green coats have bought it given they have direct video evidence, with only one plausible context that fits.

P.S Hard to imagine in the heat of the moment Brooks caddie felt compelled to blurt out the number of bathrooms in Brooks VRBO not once... but twice. 

Brooks probably didn’t have to give much of an explanation at all. This is the way the rules are set up. If we want to set it up like the legal system, we might be able to adjudicate these issues more to your liking, but it’s not the system we have.

[Thomas Dai]

Protecting the field. All of the field.
And in the pro game, money. Guys down the field and their families losing out on prize money and other potential financial benefits coz someone gained an inappropriate advantage.
Atb

[A.G._Crockett]

Here’s something I’m curious about. Why on earth are players helping out the people they’re competing against? If it’s as prevalent as many are saying (and I believe it) it’s extremely confusing to me.

I must admit, this is the part that throws me as well. 

I KNOW these guys are deeply competitive, or they wouldn't have made it to where they are.  And yet they are doing things that are not only against the Rules, but that I wouldn't do with my closest friends in a $6 Nassau.  Nor would they ask or answer; ALL of us know better, and want to win.  Really, it's that simple.

If I'm a Tour player and I find out that my caddie has done this without my knowledge or approval, he won't do it twice or he'll be looking for another bag that night.

[Jim_Coleman]

   They help each other out all the time - professional courtesy I suppose. How about when they leave balls near the hole while a competitor is chipping or hitting a sand shot - backstopping? 

[John Kavanaugh]

   They help each other out all the time - professional courtesy I suppose. How about when they leave balls near the hole while a competitor is chipping or hitting a sand shot - backstopping?

In an attempt to play promptly a considerate golfer is ready to chip up as soon as his opponents ball comes to rest. Nothing worse than having to back off and wait as some petulant dude scurries to mark his ball.

[Tim Martin]

Here’s something I’m curious about. Why on earth are players helping out the people they’re competing against? If it’s as prevalent as many are saying (and I believe it) it’s extremely confusing to me.

If I'm a Tour player and I find out that my caddie has done this without my knowledge or approval, he won't do it twice or he'll be looking for another bag that night.

There is no chance that a caddie doesn’t know where his player stands on the issue.

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