C.B. MacDonald was not that great...

[George_Bahto]

I made promises to certin people that I would not go there

[George_Bahto]

Do we know if the Merion committee took Macdonald's sketches back to Merion with them


don't know - Raynor had them - he and Banks partnered - what happened to them after SR died is still a mystery

I doubt if they were leaving them at clubs unless by mistake - I only saw one that was left at a club

[TEPaul]

"I made promises to certin people that I would not go there."


George:

I completely understand that and I'm not asking you to say anything you promised to certain people you wouldn't say. You told me that maybe a year ago when you and I were discussing Macdonald. I even remember where we were in a cart at Winged Foot when you told me that. I respect that and your position but that does not change a damn thing about the facts of Charlie Macdonald's life and times. All it says is there are some things you feel you know because you were told and would prefer not to mention, and I respect that and your position.

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

I can tell you that there is nothing at Merion or MCC that anyone is aware of that indicates the Wilson Committee took Macdonald's drawings and surveys from abroad back to Philadelphia with them. The only mention of them was that he showed them to the Wilson Committee during the first of two days they were there in early March of 1911.

[Jim Nugent]

George, did CBM really call it the "Crook Club?"

Also, did CBM do any courses after 1917 without Raynor?  Or any after NGLA opened, for that matter, that you know of? 

[TEPaul]

"I understand he was involved with a few projects. I call them few, because, compared to Donald Ross's 42 courses in one of those early 1920 years, it seems a pittance.

My posit, and it isn't fact, is that he was not happy with the way things worked out with American golf. After learning the finer points directly from Old Tom, and seeing a disregard for what he may have felt as core, and becoming frustrated and ultimately depressed, he might have only been persuaded to do a few projects by a few passionate individuals, who saw eye to eye on these finer points.

I admit it's a lot of assumptions on my part, but seems like a natural reaction to being ignored. Also, I'm not just referring to his architectural involvement, but also in the organization he started."



Adam:

I agree with you; particularly your second and third paragraphs. However, as we both seem to recognize those kinds of things are just not easy to track and analyze as they were never chronicled at the time in somethng like a biography. The best we can find today is Macdonald's own virtual golf autobiography, "Scotland's Gift Golf" and the occasional references to some other things in his life as these so-called "Agronomy Letters" that refer to him now and then, or even something like the situation that took place with The Creek Club in 1926.

However, even if it probably greatly surprises us today about a man who died 71 years ago there are still a few people around who knew him and remember him quite well and then of course there are all the old "one off" stories about him that are still mentioned today around there. There were a number of men (and women) from that age and the next generation around that area in golf who surely were memorable and obviously Charlie was one of them.

There was one around there who was a prominent member of all the CBM clubs of Long Island that I remember well, who if a movie was made of CBM I would've definitely cast him in the starring roll as CBM. He was the inimitable, and sometimes larger than life, James "Jimmy" Knott!! It was so ironic to me when I went down to Swede's auto repair shop in Southampton which is a virtual shrine to CBM and NGLA, Swede spoke of Knott as if he were the second coming of Macdonald himself.

[TEPaul]

JimN:

From NGLA on I don't believe Macdonald ever did anything in architecture in which Raynor was not involved with the possible exception of CBM's apparent four day involvement over a period of app a year with Merion East which seems to have only involved Whigam with CBM.

Frankly, I'm beginning to suspect there were two massively unsung heroes throughout CBM's career in architecture from NGLA on----eg Seth Raynor and H.J Whigam! It seems when one really begins to research below the surface with some of these projects this becomes more and more apparent. The most recent one may be Old White.

To me, at this point, and something I only thought of recently, IS, the question of how good CBM was with PRE-construction contour survey maps? If he was really good at using and interpreting them I think it could explain a whole lot. If not, it might explain a whole lot too, in this case Raynor. It would not surprise me if he may've been one of the very first to use them comprehensively (at least in the person of Raynor), but yet I've never seen anything but two little minor iotas to suggest that he was.

In my opinion, really understanding and using PRE-construction topo (contour) maps is sort of a natural or inherent talent and some of the best architects have it and some of the best don't!

[George_Bahto]

"George, did CBM really call it the "Crook Club?"

Also, did CBM do any courses after 1917 without Raynor?  Or any after NGLA opened, for that matter, that you know of?  "


Jim that was my typo - that's Creek ........... (not easy getting old, fella   

I doubt if CB did ANY course without Seth

[George_Bahto]

Tom, IMHO, I believe old Charlie was not inot "work" - he was the big-brush guy ..... as in "Seth, I've got a great idea - here it is - you figure out the details ....... to me that was basis of Charles B and Seth

[Jim_Kennedy]

George,
Must have taken a toll on CB when SR died.

[TEPaul]

Well, put it this way, Georgie Boy, I definitely don't see Charlie out there in jeans or over-alls and construction boots!  

[TEPaul]

"Tom, IMHO, I believe old Charlie was not inot "work" - he was the big-brush guy ..... as in "Seth, I've got a great idea - here it is - you figure out the details ....... to me that was basis of Charles B and Seth."



George:

In my opinion, not just Charlie but all those so-called "amateur/sportsmen" that produced those handful or so of great courses and architecture were all big-brush guys!!

They considered themselves to be "gentlemen" and they all knew they were all well educated and usually with expertise in history, the classics, the arts and sometimes in applied sciences.

This notion and suggestion of Moriarty in his essay "The Missing Faces of Merion" seems to completely miss or misunderstand this important and fundamental point when he assumed and concluded that Wilson and his committee did not and could not route and design Merion East and all they actually did was just construct (build) the course to someone else's plans.

For Christ's Sake, guys like that just hired experienced people like Raynor and Pickering to figure out and do the building of their ideas and designs!  

[TEPaul]

Jim that was my typo - that's Creek ........... (not easy getting old, fella   )"



Georgie Boy;

Then for God's Sake, go hire yourself a pretty secretary with big tits and a name like Lollita LaLaLungs. Remember, you're in Charlie's world and in Charlie's clubs now and you're rich and famous too, so act like it!!

[George_Bahto]

Crook CC - thought I found another lost Raynor course

TEP:

rich ?? -  no   - 

havin' fun?   - very much so


I still can't get over that crazy "trenchcoat" you were wearing at MR ..... thought you were going to open it up at any moment and flash ....  no, not a body - a whole array of fake watches   

[TEPaul]

George:

That "trenchcoat" as you call it is actually Ralph Lauren's best effort at a true old fashioned "slicker"----eg oil cloth. No way in the world one could get wet in that thing! There are definitely no fake watches inside it but there is a .45 with a very long barrel in there if you piss me off or if I happen to run into the likes of MacWood and Moriarty. It shoots an incredibly powerful stream of water or sometimes grapefruit juice mixed with, with.....well, belay that!

By the way, if Charlie was around there is no way I would hang up that slicker because there is little doubt he would steal it from me and make it his own.

George, there is a most intersting word in those "agronomy letters" that both Piper and Wilson used to describe the way Charlie could be. They used the word "crab" or that he would "crab" everything. Look it up; I think it describes the way he was and could be pretty well. Crab is a verb that definitely applies to the finest curmudgeons!  

And George, RICH is a relative term and one that is something of a state of mind. The point is if one is perhaps not quite as rich in numerical terms as someone else the deal is to not admit it and act like you are anyway. Please don't tell me Charlie didn't understand that too with the best of them.

Matter of fact, if you are interested in the likes of Charlie one also needs to deal directly with what others say about them in public. For instance, when Bradley Klein asked if the "Dry Cleaner" was in the audience during that Mountain Ridge meeting, that was frankly grounds for an immediate duel to the death. I'm shocked you didn't call him out on it. I would've lent you the long barrelled .45 in my slicker and offered to act as your second. Or at the very least you should have proceeded directly front and center to the projector and punched out the little pipsqueak insulter! That's what Charlie would've done at a minimum!

[George_Bahto]

"They use the word "crab" or that he would "crab" everything. Look it up; I think it describes the way he was and could be pretty well. Crab is a verb that definitely applies to the finest curmudgeons!  "

very accurate description of his possible actions and I love the use of the word - never saw that before

that "puupy" CBM was a certainly impatient, to say the least ..............................  however, "wadda guy!"  .. and as I've always said, I think he got and gets a lot of bad press - this guy had many, many faithful friends all over the globe, so how bad could he have been?

[TEPaul]

"however, "wadda guy!"  .. and as I've always said, I think he got and gets a lot of bad press - this guy had many, many faithful friends all over the globe, so how bad could he have been?"



George:

In a short sentence the above is PRECISELY why I have been so fascinated by Macdonald for so long!!!

I've seen a good number of people in that area and in those clubs and that world who were a whole lot like everyone who knew him seemed to say CBM was like. To a man, none of them were lightweights, that's for damn sure. BUT they could be bad on occasion----really, really bad on occasion in public and the fascination of it all is how that world and the people in it dealt with them when they got that way. THAT is the story George and it is very well worth telling because it happens to be the fascinating tapestry of that time and place and the people in it like Charles Blair Macdonald and his friends-----some of whom were one helluva lot more powerful than he ever was or could be.

Those people had a way of dealing with it that says a whole lot about them and a whole lot about a guy like Charlie too; and I mean that very much positively, in an odd sort of way. The "odd sort of way" is THE story and if we really want to "feel" that time and place and those people in it we need to know it better. It was a whole helluva lot different than the world we live in today, that's for damn sure.

[Mac Plumart]

You know Tom...I think you've really got something there.  My best stock research is not when I know the company's products, revenues, earnings, debt levels, etc.  It is when I know that...but also who the CEO is, how did he get there, who are his friends, who's on the board, why, who are his/their competitors, allies, etc...add in the "mood" of the market and combine historical precedent on human behavior...and...it is like putting together all the moving pieces into a mosaic that clearly illuminates the picture.  Once that lightbulb goes on, I get a clear picture of what will happen next. 

To me, it sounds like your research process and analysis on these golf related items might follow a similiar strategy.

Keep up the good work.

[TEPaul]

Mac:

I'll tell you a really good analogy to what I'm talking about with those people back then in golf to your business and what you just said.

Maybe 20-25 years ago when the whole M&A and hostile take-over dealings began off of Wall Streeters and their clients like T. Boone Pickens (and fueled by the whole creation of junk bonds by Mike Milliken who took his action and idea to Drexel, Burnham, Lambert thereby creating a multi-billion dollar industry) there was this young duo out of Harvard Business school, Mary Something and a guy like her from Chicago she married who were absolutely on the top of their game with M&Aing and hostile takeovers but unfortunately even though they had the Ivy League educated smarts and numbers down pat that should've satisfied most any sellers or targets, they completely forgot to consider the basics of human nature such as the personalities of the people they were dealing with and against and their sensibilites and such and so it turned out that even if the numbers were right and such they came to find some of those boards and owners actually preferred to destroy their own companies rather than let some arrogant young whippersnappers like those two out of Harvard take it over.

A pretty good lesson in life, I would say.

Those men back then who were the Captains of the Universe had an interesting way of cloaking parts of their world and taking care of their own and their friends quietly if they got out of hand and embarrassing and the last thing they ever did was go public with it which sure isn't the way it works today. They definitely knew how to take care of their own with nothing much more than a subtle "By Your Leave."  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick:

I can tell you that there is nothing at Merion or MCC that anyone is aware of that indicates the Wilson Committee took Macdonald's drawings and surveys from abroad back to Philadelphia with them. The only mention of them was that he showed them to the Wilson Committee during the first of two days they were there in early March of 1911.

George Bahto,

Any idea as to what happened to his sketches, maps, topos, etc., etc. ?

Does NGLA have them.

CBM's Estate.

Who bought CBM's house in Southampton, and did they find any artifacts ?

[George_Bahto]

Fm TEP: "George Bahto,

Any idea as to what happened to his sketches, maps, topos, etc., etc. ?  from what I (think) I know  - they still may be around (that's pretty vague   
Does NGLA have them.    NO

CBM's Estate.   NO

Who bought CBM's house in Southampton, and did the find any artifacts ?
they are and were not there

[TEPaul]

George and Pat:

Just to see if you two have been paying attention---here is a rerun of an important CBM trivia question;

What was the name of his estate in Roslyn?

You two blokes who say you speak with Charlie now and then are getting a bit vague on his details, you know. For instance, George didn't even know CB and Mrs. CB lived in the Plaza Hotel. What do you think C.B. did, take the train home to Roslyn smashed out of his mind after some serious partying in NYC??  And how do you think C.B. made the necessary social contacts with the Greenbriar and Yale if you didn't know that he had an apartment in the Plaza? Ever heard of Beineke and Storey? Buck up, Buckos!

[Patrick_Mucci]

George and Pat:

Just to see if you two have been paying attention---here is a rerun of an important CBM trivia question;

What was the name of his estate in Roslyn?

BALLYSHEAR

He was going to name it "Happydale Farms", but found out that some deranged individual in Pennsylvania, just outside of Philadelphia had taken that name

You two blokes who say you speak with Charlie now and then are getting a bit vague on his details, you know. For instance, George didn't even know CB and Mrs. CB lived in the Plaza Hotel. What do you think C.B. did, take the train home to Roslyn smashed out of his mind after some serious partying in NYC??  And how do you think C.B. made the necessary social contacts with the Greenbriar and Yale if you didn't know that he had an apartment in the Plaza? Ever heard of Beineke and Storey? Buck up, Buckos!

[George_Bahto]

he seemed to have named every home he had Ballyshear - I think Mid Ocean was Bluebird, though - Ballydhear was taken from his grandfather's home

perhaps Mrs. CBM lived in the city - she only sent to ngla once (was that enuf for her ??)

[TEPaul]

His place in Roslyn was Phoenix Lodge.

Perhaps he felt it should be the place he'd launch his comeback from the ashes if a comeback needed to be launched. I've heard rumors that in 1929 he and Whigs were contemplating a project known as NGLA Part Two but shortly after the drawings came off the drawing board Charlie inexplicably misplaced them and that was that even though I've also heard they were last seen in the basement of a fast food establiishment in Glen Cove Long Island in 2008.