[Tim Martin]

How much potential private club business is lost to the destination trip(s)? I see more Millennials and Generation Z consumers spending the bulk of their golf budgets on these types of trips while eschewing private club memberships. As we all know the private club model is red hot right now but I’m not alone in the thinking that at some point in will turn back down. I’m not saying it will turn down to pre-Covid levels but will definitely take a hit. I’m interested in opinions as to who fairs better on an industry wide basis when the market begins to soften. Thanks.

[John Kavanaugh]

Remember back when raters dropped their memberships because they would rather save their money for travel. Now the modern destination club has allowed us civilians to take the same path. I’ve even dropped a couple of National Memberships for this exact reason.


If you want to go deep the intrinsic value of being able to host friends at private clubs has also gone down. I call it getting Sand Hilled.

[Rob Marshall]

All depends on what you are looking for Tim. I want a place to hang out and practice in retirement. I've been a member of a private club up north for over 30 years. Was planning on being a member of two clubs with limited golf travel. Looks like I might have no choice to take some trips. I don't think that's a bad way to go. I'm 60. I don't see myself joining a new club down south when I'm 70 if that's how long it takes. Problem I would have is convincing my golf buddies to do more than one trip a year. Not everyone has deep enough pockets or a spouse that doesn't mind 

[Stewart Abramson]

Problem I would have is convincing my golf buddies to do more than one trip a year. Not everyone has deep enough pockets or a spouse that doesn't mind 

I'll bet there are guys here willing to go on trips 

[Wayne_Kozun]

I would have agreed with you four years ago but Covid filled up private club memberships - at least it did here in Toronto.  Very few clubs had waiting lists in 2019, now several do, and all have raised entrance fees substantially, and have been raising annual dues quite a bit.

[Tim Gavrich]

In terms of new-build courses expected to come online in the U.S. in the next few years, by my rough count, destination-type private clubs are outpacing destination resort courses by about 4 to 1. It seems the cadre of people who can afford multi-thousand-dollar golf trips every year are reacting to the increased demand for destination golf by building their own private clubs for the purpose.

[Tommy Williamsen]

National memberships will suffer the most. Why would someone bring guests to a club with one course when they could go to a resort with multiple highly-ranked courses?

[Wayne_Kozun]

In terms of new-build courses expected to come online in the U.S. in the next few years, by my rough count, destination-type private clubs are outpacing destination resort courses by about 4 to 1.

Are these destination-type courses in traditional golf destinations, like Desert Mountain, or do you mean more one-off places like Ohoopee Match Club?

[John Emerson]

What gets me is that so many Americans are quick to drop several thousand on a destination trip here in the USA and don’t have the first clue that they can go to the Isles for the same or less than what they’re about to spend state-side. Then again there are still millions of Americans who don’t even have a passport.

[Tim_Weiman]

What gets me is that so many Americans are quick to drop several thousand on a destination trip here in the USA and don’t have the first clue that they can go to the Isles for the same or less than what they’re about to spend state-side. Then again there are still millions of Americans who don’t even have a passport.

John,


Your point is even more true when it comes to Australia. Outside of people here at GCA or Tom Doak’s associates at Renaissance, I don’t know any American who has gone to Australia to play golf.

[Tim Martin]

What gets me is that so many Americans are quick to drop several thousand on a destination trip here in the USA and don’t have the first clue that they can go to the Isles for the same or less than what they’re about to spend state-side. Then again there are still millions of Americans who don’t even have a passport.

John,


Your point is even more true when it comes to Australia. Outside of people here at GCA or Tom Doak’s associates at Renaissance, I don’t know any American who has gone to Australia to play golf.

Tim-From metro NY you can get to Ireland/Scotland quicker than Bandon. To undertake a trip from metro NY to Australia is a next level adventure and not in the same conversation. I would love to see the Sandbelt courses as well as what is in New Zealand but wouldn’t pretend to be intrepid enough to attempt that kind of travel. I’m speaking for myself but would assume most would fall in line with that thinking.

[Rob Marshall]

What gets me is that so many Americans are quick to drop several thousand on a destination trip here in the USA and don’t have the first clue that they can go to the Isles for the same or less than what they’re about to spend state-side. Then again there are still millions of Americans who don’t even have a passport.

John,


Your point is even more true when it comes to Australia. Outside of people here at GCA or Tom Doak’s associates at Renaissance, I don’t know any American who has gone to Australia to play golf.

Tim-From metro NY you can get to Ireland/Scotland quicker than Bandon. To undertake a trip from metro NY to Australia is a next level adventure and not in the same conversation. I would love to see the Sandbelt courses as well as what is in New Zealand but wouldn’t pretend to be intrepid enough to attempt that kind of travel. I’m speaking for my myself but would assume most would fall in line with that thinking.

24 hours on a plane doesn't equal good time to me.

[Tim Martin]

What gets me is that so many Americans are quick to drop several thousand on a destination trip here in the USA and don’t have the first clue that they can go to the Isles for the same or less than what they’re about to spend state-side. Then again there are still millions of Americans who don’t even have a passport.

John,


Your point is even more true when it comes to Australia. Outside of people here at GCA or Tom Doak’s associates at Renaissance, I don’t know any American who has gone to Australia to play golf.

Tim-From metro NY you can get to Ireland/Scotland quicker than Bandon. To undertake a trip from metro NY to Australia is a next level adventure and not in the same conversation. I would love to see the Sandbelt courses as well as what is in New Zealand but wouldn’t pretend to be intrepid enough to attempt that kind of travel. I’m speaking for my myself but would assume most would fall in line with that thinking.

24 hours on a plane doesn't equal good time to me.

+1

[Tim Gavrich]

In terms of new-build courses expected to come online in the U.S. in the next few years, by my rough count, destination-type private clubs are outpacing destination resort courses by about 4 to 1.

Are these destination-type courses in traditional golf destinations, like Desert Mountain, or do you mean more one-off places like Ohoopee Match Club?

I'm seeing a healthy mix of both. An example of the former would be the planned third private Kiawah Island Club course. An example of the latter would be the new Bounty Club (King-Collins) in Tennessee.

[Tim Gavrich]

National memberships will suffer the most. Why would someone bring guests to a club with one course when they could go to a resort with multiple highly-ranked courses?

Because the resorts with multiple highly-ranked courses are booked up. I saw on Twitter today that someone wanted to arrange a trip to Sand Valley, and the first available time frame for their group was September 2024.


Several of the new courses/clubs in development are of the national membership variety. As long as the economy doesn't tank, I think we're coming up on a bumper crop of national/destination private golf clubs.

[Tommy Williamsen]

National memberships will suffer the most. Why would someone bring guests to a club with one course when they could go to a resort with multiple highly-ranked courses?

Because the resorts with multiple highly-ranked courses are booked up. I saw on Twitter today that someone wanted to arrange a trip to Sand Valley, and the first available time frame for their group was September 2024.


Several of the new courses/clubs in development are of the national membership variety. As long as the economy doesn't tank, I think we're coming up on a bumper crop of national/destination private golf clubs.

That's true. It is hard to plan two years out. My guess is that new multi-course resorts will continue to be built.

[MKrohn]

What gets me is that so many Americans are quick to drop several thousand on a destination trip here in the USA and don’t have the first clue that they can go to the Isles for the same or less than what they’re about to spend state-side. Then again there are still millions of Americans who don’t even have a passport.

John,


Your point is even more true when it comes to Australia. Outside of people here at GCA or Tom Doak’s associates at Renaissance, I don’t know any American who has gone to Australia to play golf.

Tim-From metro NY you can get to Ireland/Scotland quicker than Bandon. To undertake a trip from metro NY to Australia is a next level adventure and not in the same conversation. I would love to see the Sandbelt courses as well as what is in New Zealand but wouldn’t pretend to be intrepid enough to attempt that kind of travel. I’m speaking for myself but would assume most would fall in line with that thinking.

Having flown Sydney/NY many times for work, it's not something I would tell anyone else to do.


The ease of European/UK trips from the east coast is not well understood by Australians who are travellers by necessity not choice. We also get a minimum of 4 weeks holiday, 48 hours in a plane plus jet lag is not what I would do with less than 2 weeks leave.


Wish more of you boys would come down, nothing better than hearing, "I'm like a 4-5 handicap" to ensure there is some real dollars headed my way. 

[Tim Martin]

What gets me is that so many Americans are quick to drop several thousand on a destination trip here in the USA and don’t have the first clue that they can go to the Isles for the same or less than what they’re about to spend state-side. Then again there are still millions of Americans who don’t even have a passport.

John,


Your point is even more true when it comes to Australia. Outside of people here at GCA or Tom Doak’s associates at Renaissance, I don’t know any American who has gone to Australia to play golf.

Tim-From metro NY you can get to Ireland/Scotland quicker than Bandon. To undertake a trip from metro NY to Australia is a next level adventure and not in the same conversation. I would love to see the Sandbelt courses as well as what is in New Zealand but wouldn’t pretend to be intrepid enough to attempt that kind of travel. I’m speaking for myself but would assume most would fall in line with that thinking.

Wish more of you boys would come down, nothing better than hearing, "I'm like a 4-5 handicap" to ensure there is some real dollars headed my way. 

[Tom_Doak]

National memberships will suffer the most. Why would someone bring guests to a club with one course when they could go to a resort with multiple highly-ranked courses?

Because the resorts with multiple highly-ranked courses are booked up. I saw on Twitter today that someone wanted to arrange a trip to Sand Valley, and the first available time frame for their group was September 2024.


Several of the new courses/clubs in development are of the national membership variety. As long as the economy doesn't tank, I think we're coming up on a bumper crop of national/destination private golf clubs.

That's true. It is hard to plan two years out. My guess is that new multi-course resorts will continue to be built.

I don’t know if my workload is representative, but it currently includes five resort courses (three of them new resorts) and five private clubs (four of them for national memberships).

[Tim_Weiman]

What gets me is that so many Americans are quick to drop several thousand on a destination trip here in the USA and don’t have the first clue that they can go to the Isles for the same or less than what they’re about to spend state-side. Then again there are still millions of Americans who don’t even have a passport.

John,


Your point is even more true when it comes to Australia. Outside of people here at GCA or Tom Doak’s associates at Renaissance, I don’t know any American who has gone to Australia to play golf.

Tim-From metro NY you can get to Ireland/Scotland quicker than Bandon. To undertake a trip from metro NY to Australia is a next level adventure and not in the same conversation. I would love to see the Sandbelt courses as well as what is in New Zealand but wouldn’t pretend to be intrepid enough to attempt that kind of travel. I’m speaking for my myself but would assume most would fall in line with that thinking.

24 hours on a plane doesn't equal good time to me.

+1

Tim Martin,


I certainly don’t regret the two Australia trips I took. Loved Royal Melbourne, Kingston Heath and St Andrews Beach, not to mention Barnbougle. May want to go back again depending on reports about the Seven Mile Beach project.

[Tim Martin]

What gets me is that so many Americans are quick to drop several thousand on a destination trip here in the USA and don’t have the first clue that they can go to the Isles for the same or less than what they’re about to spend state-side. Then again there are still millions of Americans who don’t even have a passport.

John,


Your point is even more true when it comes to Australia. Outside of people here at GCA or Tom Doak’s associates at Renaissance, I don’t know any American who has gone to Australia to play golf.

Tim-From metro NY you can get to Ireland/Scotland quicker than Bandon. To undertake a trip from metro NY to Australia is a next level adventure and not in the same conversation. I would love to see the Sandbelt courses as well as what is in New Zealand but wouldn’t pretend to be intrepid enough to attempt that kind of travel. I’m speaking for my myself but would assume most would fall in line with that thinking.

24 hours on a plane doesn't equal good time to me.

+1

Tim Martin,


I certainly don’t regret the two Australia trips I took. Loved Royal Melbourne, Kingston Heath and St Andrews Beach, not to mention Barnbougle. May want to go back again depending on reports about the Seven Mile Beach project.

Tim-I have nothing but admiration for anyone that makes the trip and am glad to hear how much you enjoyed both of yours.

[John Emerson]

What gets me is that so many Americans are quick to drop several thousand on a destination trip here in the USA and don’t have the first clue that they can go to the Isles for the same or less than what they’re about to spend state-side. Then again there are still millions of Americans who don’t even have a passport.

John,


Your point is even more true when it comes to Australia. Outside of people here at GCA or Tom Doak’s associates at Renaissance, I don’t know any American who has gone to Australia to play golf.

While I have yet to get to Australia, it is on the list! It is a long haul for me since I’m on the east coast. East coast folks can be in the isles in 6-7 hrs, more or less. Easy trip. Australia, on the other hand, is full day. That is a real hurdle for Americans regardless of your location. May be a little less if located on the west coast, but the trip is still very long. Like others have mentioned, 2-3 days are completely wasted on time in the air. I can leave Delaware in the morning and be on the first tee in the isles later that day.

[Joe_Tucholski]

How much potential private club business is lost to the destination trip(s)? I see more Millennials and Generation Z consumers spending the bulk of their golf budgets on these types of trips while eschewing private club memberships. As we all know the private club model is red hot right now but I’m not alone in the thinking that at some point in will turn back down. I’m not saying it will turn down to pre-Covid levels but will definitely take a hit. I’m interested in opinions as to who fairs better on an industry wide basis when the market begins to soften. Thanks.

Was it really all that common for a lot of individuals under 40, 30 or 20 to join private clubs?  Gen Z includes people that don't have their driver's license yet.  Millennials (I'm technically one) are still paying off debts, taking care of kids and growing careers (which often requires changing jobs, locations and companies).  I think we're just now starting to get to the point in our lives where things are settling down and like previous generations, we'll join clubs when time and resources in our lives allow it.  So, I don't really think destination clubs are taking private club business.


Destination trips aren't new either.  There are a number of historic resorts that have had thriving histories (some downturns with the economy).  There may be more high-end destination courses now but there are also more people with the means to visit these places.


I have to admit I don't understand the destination private club model that is becoming popular.


When I lived in Hawaii the trip to Australia/New Zealand was a pretty good option (Europe was not).  I've made three trips and each time Hawaii was part of the itinerary.  Like the rest of this topic, limited time and resources impact one's ability to golf.  A trip to Australia/New Zealand takes some serious time and resources for those living on the East Coast of the USA.

[John Mayhugh]

While I have yet to get to Australia, it is on the list! It is a long haul for me since I’m on the east coast. East coast folks can be in the isles in 6-7 hrs, more or less. Easy trip. Australia, on the other hand, is full day. That is a real hurdle for Americans regardless of your location. May be a little less if located on the west coast, but the trip is still very long. Like others have mentioned, 2-3 days are completely wasted on time in the air. I can leave Delaware in the morning and be on the first tee in the isles later that day.

My one trip to Australia (from Kentucky), I was gone for ten days, playing golf on seven of them and sightseeing another. A trip to Australia does require two days of travel, but shouldn't need three. I would love to go back, but it is tough setting aside ten or more days.

I agree that travel to the UK or Ireland is much simpler, but I'm not clear on how you fly to the UK from Delaware and play later that day. It's a 6+ hour flight and 5 hour time difference. If you leave at 7am, you're not through immigration before 7pm at best. I know there's a lot of daylight in the summer, but you would seem to need a lot of travel luck to play the same day.

[Sean_A]

While I have yet to get to Australia, it is on the list! It is a long haul for me since I’m on the east coast. East coast folks can be in the isles in 6-7 hrs, more or less. Easy trip. Australia, on the other hand, is full day. That is a real hurdle for Americans regardless of your location. May be a little less if located on the west coast, but the trip is still very long. Like others have mentioned, 2-3 days are completely wasted on time in the air. I can leave Delaware in the morning and be on the first tee in the isles later that day.

My one trip to Australia (from Kentucky), I was gone for ten days, playing golf on seven of them and sightseeing another. A trip to Australia does require two days of travel, but shouldn't need three. I would love to go back, but it is tough setting aside ten or more days.

I agree that travel to the UK or Ireland is much simpler, but I'm not clear on how you fly to the UK from Delaware and play later that day. It's a 6+ hour flight and 5 hour time difference. If you leave at 7am, you're not through immigration before 7pm at best. I know there's a lot of daylight in the summer, but you would seem to need a lot of travel luck to play the same day.

I assumed he meant 24 hour period or still using east coast time rather than destination time.


Ciao

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