OT non refundable deposit on club waiting list.

[Ben Sims]

Dunbar, Woodhall Spa, Deal, Elie, Kilspindie, St Enodoc, Pulborough, Woking, North Berwick, and dozens upon dozens of clubs in the UK have waiting lists for all membership categories.

Most of those had waiting lists before Covid.  That said, I'm a member of one of them and your refunded deposit would pay for me to continue to be so for more than 5 years.  The numbers being banded about here are eye-watering.

Right. There is something very attractive about the UK club model. Which is why I joined one. But that’s been discussed here ad nauseum

[Niall C]

Rob,When they tell you no one is quitting as an excuse for eliminating a waitlist, that is BS...people die and they move so there is always a revolving door...some just slower than others...On the bright side they gave you the deposit back now instead of waiting another year or two...oh well...

Mike


That might be one way of looking at it but the other might be that they took the money under false pretences. While I've no doubt the club is acting legally or presumably they wouldn't do it, I tend to think that they have a moral obligation to stick to the deal.


Niall

[Rob Marshall]

Rob,When they tell you no one is quitting as an excuse for eliminating a waitlist, that is BS...people die and they move so there is always a revolving door...some just slower than others...On the bright side they gave you the deposit back now instead of waiting another year or two...oh well...

Mike


That might be one way of looking at it but the other might be that they took the money under false pretences. While I've no doubt the club is acting legally or presumably they wouldn't do it, I tend to think that they have a moral obligation to stick to the deal.


Niall

That's my point. There is a lack of intergrity.


I talked to them. As non-resident members leave they are replacing them from the resident waiting list. They are eliminating the non-resident category. Which by the way they needed pre Covid and they will need some day again when the covid boom ends.

[Mark Pearce]

Presumably the deposit, while they had it, sat in an account accruing interest?  And the deposit was there for a purpose, based on the representation made to you that it reserved your place on a waiting list?  If that happened in the UK, I'd be looking for legal advice on breach of contract or unjust enrichment.

[Sean_A]

Presumably the deposit, while they had it, sat in an account accruing interest?  And the deposit was there for a purpose, based on the representation made to you that it reserved your place on a waiting list?  If that happened in the UK, I'd be looking for legal advice on breach of contract or unjust enrichment.

Exactly. Unjust enrichment seems applicable. The club has borrowed your money under false pretenses and not paid interest.

Ciao

[David_Tepper]

"The club has borrowed your money under false pretenses and not paid interest."

The interest that could have been earned on $6,500 over 9 months (at 3.0%, which is way more than bank deposits have been paying) is $146.25.


I don't mean to be unsympathetic to Rob's situation (and I understand his aggravation), but I seriously doubt the club lured him into making a deposit knowing full well they would be cancelling the non-resident membership 9 months later. The market for their business model changed over this period and the club decided there was no longer a need to offer non-resident memberships. Maybe the club will regret that decision at some point in the future. Maybe it won't.   

[Rob Marshall]

"The club has borrowed your money under false pretenses and not paid interest."

The interest that could have been earned on $6,500 over 9 months (at 3.0%, which is way more than bank deposits have been paying) is $146.25.


I don't mean to be unsympathetic to Rob's situation (and I understand his aggravation), but I seriously doubt the club lured him into making a deposit knowing full well they would be cancelling the non-resident membership 9 months later. The market for their business model changed over this period and the club decided there was no longer a need to offer non-resident memberships. Maybe the club will regret that decision at some point in the future. Maybe it won't.

Schwab MM is paying over 4%. I agree the model changed but didn't we have any agreement? If I joined a another club a month ago and asked for my money back do you think they would have said sure or told me it was non-refundable? I was brought up to honor my commitments.

[Kevin_Reilly]

"The club has borrowed your money under false pretenses and not paid interest."

The interest that could have been earned on $6,500 over 9 months (at 3.0%, which is way more than bank deposits have been paying) is $146.25.


I don't mean to be unsympathetic to Rob's situation (and I understand his aggravation), but I seriously doubt the club lured him into making a deposit knowing full well they would be cancelling the non-resident membership 9 months later. The market for their business model changed over this period and the club decided there was no longer a need to offer non-resident memberships. Maybe the club will regret that decision at some point in the future. Maybe it won't.

Schwab MM is paying over 4%. I agree the model changed but didn't we have any agreement? If I joined a another club a month ago and asked for my money back do you think they would have said sure or told me it was non-refundable? I was brought up to honor my commitments.

It was a sleazy move by the club, but David's post is spot on.  Minuscule interest at the time (I bet they were getting a fraction of 3% on these waiting list deposits), so posts about suing for the foregone interest don't reflect a real-world approach.  The club is operating in a manner that they might regret in a few years (or less), as David said.


As also posted above, you might have avoided something bad in the future with this club.


Hope all works out well for you.

[Bernie Bell]

How long is the wait at Calusa Pines?

[Mark Pearce]

"The club has borrowed your money under false pretenses and not paid interest."

The interest that could have been earned on $6,500 over 9 months (at 3.0%, which is way more than bank deposits have been paying) is $146.25.


I don't mean to be unsympathetic to Rob's situation (and I understand his aggravation), but I seriously doubt the club lured him into making a deposit knowing full well they would be cancelling the non-resident membership 9 months later. The market for their business model changed over this period and the club decided there was no longer a need to offer non-resident memberships. Maybe the club will regret that decision at some point in the future. Maybe it won't.

How many deposits were they sitting on that they later refunded?  There was a time when big London law firms made very substantial money every year from interest on money in their client accounts.  Lots of clients meaning that at any one time there would be many, many millions in a typical client account.  Which earned good interest, given the sums involved. 

[Mike_Trenham]

All clubs should be doing this right now.  It’s time to reset things.  Put everyone on the waitlist through the membership process, then hold a Dutch auction each year for the available number of spots.  Let the market set the price.


There are many times clubs are bending over backwards for new members the opposite should be true as well at times like now.

[Mark Pearce]

All clubs should be doing this right now.  It’s time to reset things.  Put everyone on the waitlist through the membership process, then hold a Dutch auction each year for the available number of spots.  Let the market set the price.


There are many times clubs are bending over backwards for new members the opposite should be true as well at times like now.

Not sure I could disagree more.

[Sean_A]

All clubs should be doing this right now.  It’s time to reset things.  Put everyone on the waitlist through the membership process, then hold a Dutch auction each year for the available number of spots.  Let the market set the price.


There are many times clubs are bending over backwards for new members the opposite should be true as well at times like now.

Not sure I could disagree more.

I guess if the membership is behind highest bidder membership then fine. That is certainly not a membership model that would interest me.

Ciao

[Ken Fry]

So to summarize, you pay approximately $7000 you'll never get back for the honor of eventually joining the club in hopefully 5-7 years for the privilege of paying them $100 K in initiation fees (yes, I know many charge as much as three times that amount) and $15,000 per year in dues for a golf season of about 7 months?
Yup, Naples continues to be La La Land....
Ken

[Ian Mackenzie]

How long is the wait at Calusa Pines?

From what I have heard, CP is owned by one (Chicago) guy and HE is the membership committee.
No board, no process, but also with that comes limited transparency.

[Rob Marshall]

So to summarize, you pay approximately $7000 you'll never get back for the honor of eventually joining the club in hopefully 5-7 years for the privilege of paying them $100 K in initiation fees (yes, I know many charge as much as three times that amount) and $15,000 per year in dues for a golf season of about 7 months?
Yup, Naples continues to be La La Land....
Ken

That sums it up in a nutshell

[David Cronan]

How long is the wait at Calusa Pines?

From what I have heard, CP is owned by one (Chicago) guy and HE is the membership committee.
No board, no process, but also with that comes limited transparency.

Actually owned by 2 Chicago men, but the majority owner is Gary and he runs things.


Also, the club is located quite a ways from where Rob said he was/has a place; an approximate half hour drive, each way, in the best of times.


And CP's initiation is around $200k. Only one type of membership.

[Jim Sherma]

I once heard that the key to understanding a lot of American culture is that it is much less about who is in the club with you than it is about who is excluded from the club. These high initiation fees is simply the new hurdle of exclusion now that the more obvious ones have become passé. When outright discrimination is taboo, financial discrimination is still ok.

[John Kavanaugh]

I once heard that the key to understanding a lot of American culture is that it is much less about who is in the club with you than it is about who is excluded from the club. These high initiation fees is simply the new hurdle of exclusion now that the more obvious ones have become passé. When outright discrimination is taboo, financial discrimination is still ok.

The proof in dispelling your theory lies in the fact that wealthy people are boring. They just aren’t as annoying as three less wealthy people. It’s a numbers thing.

[Craig Sweet]

I'm paying $820 a year to play Old Works...But I also have to live on a Superfund site to get that deal.

[Daryl David]

It is what it is. This boom will pass and sell lists will replace waiting lists. That’s the nature of the private club model. Just be patient.


One advantage of today’s market. I just heard the other day from a club I left in 1996 that my abandoned membership had finally cleared the sell list and they will be sending me my $15k initiation back in a few months. Behind every dark cloud…….

[Joe_Tucholski]

One advantage of today’s market. I just heard the other day from a club I left in 1996 that my abandoned membership had finally cleared the sell list and they will be sending me my $15k initiation back in a few months. Behind every dark cloud…….

I love this...over 25 years.  Good on the club for working to contact you.  Did you even have an e-mail address or cell phone when you left?  Kind of the opposite of Rob's experience.

[Tony_Muldoon]

It is what it is. This boom will pass and sell lists will replace waiting lists. That’s the nature of the private club model. Just be patient.


One advantage of today’s market. I just heard the other day from a club I left in 1996 that my abandoned membership had finally cleared the sell list and they will be sending me my $15k initiation back in a few months. Behind every dark cloud…….

Just curious about this business model. To have the equivalent spending power today you would need $29.5k.  Do you know how much the club has charged the new member?

[Daryl David]

One advantage of today’s market. I just heard the other day from a club I left in 1996 that my abandoned membership had finally cleared the sell list and they will be sending me my $15k initiation back in a few months. Behind every dark cloud…….

I love this...over 25 years.  Good on the club for working to contact you.  Did you even have an e-mail address or cell phone when you left?  Kind of the opposite of Rob's experience.

Amazing, I know. They worked network contacts and social media to find me. Even called my wife to ask her to get in touch with me. They acted properly. They had a debt and they are prepared to pay up. They said it’s important to uphold their agreements. Otherwise, why would anyone trust them? Their words.

[Chris Hughes]

Rob,When they tell you no one is quitting as an excuse for eliminating a waitlist, that is BS...people die and they move so there is always a revolving door...some just slower than others...On the bright side they gave you the deposit back now instead of waiting another year or two...oh well...

Mike


That might be one way of looking at it but the other might be that they took the money under false pretences. While I've no doubt the club is acting legally or presumably they wouldn't do it, I tend to think that they have a moral obligation to stick to the deal.


Niall

That's my point. There is a lack of intergrity.


I talked to them. As non-resident members leave they are replacing them from the resident waiting list. They are eliminating the non-resident category. Which by the way they needed pre Covid and they will need some day again when the covid boom ends.

Legit clubs with a true "cap" on the number of "Golf" members don't include the Non-Res category in that cap -- the two categories should be independent of each other. 


Initiation fee/s increases are a non-factor on the overall budget (especially so when turnover is low)...there has to be some other reason (possibly 100% illogical) driving the situation you are describing...