News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
I've been watching The Open at St. Andrews all day and I've seen a ton of shots where it was pretty much impossible to get the ball close to the hole:  the second shot on 12 to that far left pin, anything from short of the 13th, anything from the right of the 15th, all the shots from short left at the 16th, Hovland's putt from in front of the 14th green just now, etc.  Yes, they were all downwind, but it's only a 10-15 mph wind, not a gale.


Of course, I'm fine with all of that, that's the main defense The Old Course has.





But how many times have I listened to criticism for presenting a shot which does the same thing?  At least as many as the examples I just cited.  "I hit it on the top tier on 17 at Streamsong and couldn't putt within six feet of the hole."


Would somebody put together a highlight reel of The Old Course today so I can just send it along to people who tell me my courses are unfair?


P.S.  I know that a lot of the players today would scream bloody murder about these hole locations if it were in any other setting.  That's why the title of this thread is in the form of a question?  Are they right, and they just make an exception for The Old Course?  Or is St. Andrews right and all the rules-makers wrong?

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should You Always Be Able to Putt or Chip Dead to the Hole?
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2022, 03:04:52 PM »
TOC presents a balance so it's fine. Plus, us punters won't ever see these hole locations during one round.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should You Always Be Able to Putt or Chip Dead to the Hole?
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2022, 03:36:00 PM »
To the question in the Subject Line: Of course not. Chipping and putting represent a sizeable percentage of shots. They should be challenging. And fun.


Ira

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should You Always Be Able to Putt or Chip Dead to the Hole?
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2022, 03:52:52 PM »
An aspect to consider is the length of second shot being played into the hole locations mentioned above. The shots are relatively really not that long.
Now for Mr or Mrs Amateur it’s highly unlikely they’ll be playing their second shots into greens with similar clubs, third shots maybe, so there’s something of an apples and oranges situation going on.
I’d love to be playing shorter shots into the same hole locations highlighted above instead of fairway metals, hybrids, long/mid-irons but I’d likely need to play TOC at about 4,500 yards in order to be playing my approach shots with the equivalent clubs the players we’ve been watching on TV etc the last three days have been.
Atb

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should You Always Be Able to Putt or Chip Dead to the Hole?
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2022, 04:09:07 PM »
For putting, I view it as shots above some hole locations are going to be a hazard; as putting downhill is almost impossible to keep on the green let alone stop.  From Tom's neck of the woods, I played Crystal Downs a couple weeks ago, I was above the hole on a middle pin on #1 couldn't stop it. I was also 3 feet above hole #9 and putted off the green on a mid right pin.  Now those are just speed, but two at least twice, I had to aim in the fringe and hope it trickled to the hole on a break.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2022, 04:34:05 PM by Jeff Schley »
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

James Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should You Always Be Able to Putt or Chip Dead to the Hole?
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2022, 04:18:09 PM »
My answer is “yes.”  I think you should always a chance to get it close enough to the hole with a recovery shot to have a credible putt at par, say 10-15 feet.   If you are on the green, it should always be possible to get it within 5-6 feet of the hole with a great putt. 


It doesn’t bother me at all that TOC offers pros wedge shots from 100+ yards that you they can’t get within 20 feet through the air.  I would bet a crafty putter with a lot of course knowledge could putt it close from many of those spots!
« Last Edit: July 16, 2022, 07:08:58 PM by James Brown »

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should You Always Be Able to Putt or Chip Dead to the Hole?
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2022, 04:29:47 PM »
If you are out of position on or near the green there should be a penalty. I play most of my golf at a course where just being on the green doesn't automatically mean a two putt. Sometimes you can hit a good putt and still be ten feet from the hole. Hit a better shot into the green.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should You Always Be Able to Putt or Chip Dead to the Hole?
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2022, 05:06:25 PM »
With respect to the golf tournament, this type of challenge makes it special when you see an extraordinary play under these circumstances.  Cameron Smith made a spectacular chip from the rough on #12 to have a 10 footer for birdie.  He aimed left where the slope wasn't so steep, and trickled a two bouncer just onto the surface.  Smith just missed the putt, but he had a very good look.  All the people who played at the hole left it 30 feet down the hill and missed the birdie putt.

Very similar to an approach shot on #17 late in the round, when a player (I can't remember who it was) hit a perfect shot that finished ten feet left of the green, with an easy 30-40 foot leave to the hole.  Those were some of the wow moments today.

It's a great tournament so far.  The leaderboard is packed with young superstars and some of the best middle-aged golfers (late 20s to late 30s).

I don't know the course well enough to know whether tomorrow's hole locations will be easier or tougher.  Tomorrow will be warm and cloudy, highs in the low 70s and southwest winds around 8-12 mph.  A little rain in the morning.  I'll guess one of the leaders shoots 69 to win at 19 under.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2022, 11:48:01 PM by John Kirk »

Peter Pallotta

Re: Should You Always Be Able to Putt or Chip Dead to the Hole?
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2022, 05:15:46 PM »
Very nice analysis there, John: the perspective of a good player who also knows gca, and -- as per that excellent essay -- who loves to see the ball roll!

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should You Always Be Able to Putt or Chip Dead to the Hole?
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2022, 05:39:38 PM »
   If it’s impossible from any place, I’d say that’s problematic. If it’s possible if you hit to the right place, no problem at at all, even if it’s really hard to get the ball to the right place.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should You Always Be Able to Putt or Chip Dead to the Hole?
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2022, 06:15:26 PM »
I don't pretend to know TOC at all well. But it certainly appears many of the pin positions have been pretty challenging/severe (set near slopes & fall offs, behind knobs, etc.) over the first 3 rounds. I suppose that is the only defense the course has these days against scoring going really low.

On the other hand, watching Shane Lowry pitch in 2 holes in a row showed the pins are accessible if you are playing from the right spots. :)
« Last Edit: July 16, 2022, 06:41:43 PM by David_Tepper »

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should You Always Be Able to Putt or Chip Dead to the Hole?
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2022, 06:52:20 PM »
Very nice analysis there, John: the perspective of a good player who also knows gca, and -- as per that excellent essay -- who loves to see the ball roll!

Thanks Peter.  I appreciate it.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2022, 08:59:23 PM by John Kirk »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Should You Always Be Able to Putt or Chip Dead to the Hole?
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2022, 09:40:15 PM »
An aspect to consider is the length of second shot being played into the hole locations mentioned above. The shots are relatively really not that long.
Now for Mr or Mrs Amateur it’s highly unlikely they’ll be playing their second shots into greens with similar clubs, third shots maybe, so there’s something of an apples and oranges situation going on.
I’d love to be playing shorter shots into the same hole locations highlighted above instead of fairway metals, hybrids, long/mid-irons but I’d likely need to play TOC at about 4,500 yards in order to be playing my approach shots with the equivalent clubs the players we’ve been watching on TV etc the last three days have been.



The devil's advocate perspective there is, does it really matter how far back you are if the ball won't stop?  Plus Mr and Mrs Amateur are only trying to make 4 or 5, not 3. 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Should You Always Be Able to Putt or Chip Dead to the Hole?
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2022, 09:42:51 PM »
   If it’s impossible from any place, I’d say that’s problematic. If it’s possible if you hit to the right place, no problem at at all, even if it’s really hard to get the ball to the right place.


There was some of both today.  On 12, the only way to get close to that hole was to drive the green or drive through it, and the wind wasn't helping as it was earlier in the week, so only a half-dozen players in the field could get there.  On 16, the only angle to get close was from the fence line, and rest assured that nobody who follows the DECADE method is going anywhere close to there, on purpose at least.  The other hole locations were all gettable from some angle or another.

JohnVDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should You Always Be Able to Putt or Chip Dead to the Hole?
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2022, 09:32:13 AM »
Having setup many courses for tournaments in my life, I don’t think you should always be able to putt or chip dead to the hole from all directions. In fact, I think it is probably impossible for most interesting greens unless you are going to basically going to neuter what makes the hole interesting and challenging.


In setting up a course, I prefer to place the importance on the ability to play to the green and reward well struck shots. This means that if you mishit it and miss in the wrong place, you might not be able to get it dead to the hole. 


I try to give a player two or three directions where they can get a good chip or putt dead, but they might have very little chance to do so from other locations. Obviously great players can probably overcome most of those obstacles, but they will still have to work for their pars.


As for Tom’s comment about 12, since it is playing as a par 3.5, I think that it can be made more difficult to get the chip shot close as the player still can two putt from some distance and make their par. Without that, you’re taking the risk out of the equation.


cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should You Always Be Able to Putt or Chip Dead to the Hole?
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2022, 10:03:52 AM »
TOC represents the best of QUIRK and as a former 4 handicap, it fits my game perfectly. Yet the high handicapper loves it equally. Long live QUIRK.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

TAG

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should You Always Be Able to Putt or Chip Dead to the Hole?
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2022, 12:52:21 PM »
Standing on the tee box, there should always be a "route to dead" for birdie... on a par 4, two great shots should allow you to get it stiff. but I'm fine if that requires precision and excellence...


Frankly, that's what I loved about Old Mac... as a scratch player, I found it so difficult because the angles and margins are so razor thin - but there is a route to birdie from every tee if you're willing to take it on and can excecute... BUT, two of my 18-25 handicap friends on that same day had their lowest 18-hole score ever because they could make 5 all the way around.


But no, I have no issue with being unable to tap in for par after a putt or chip dead stiff if you are out of position.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Should You Always Be Able to Putt or Chip Dead to the Hole?
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2022, 01:09:09 PM »
No, not always. But when I can't, I'd like to believe it was intentional, and that the architect had carefully planned the conundrum instead of it a result of mere happenstance, an accidental confluence of poor design, sloppy maintenance, and the pin-setting whims of a junior staffer

« Last Edit: July 17, 2022, 02:31:16 PM by PPallotta »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should You Always Be Able to Putt or Chip Dead to the Hole?
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2022, 03:14:36 PM »
As noted, almost any 2 tier green can create that situation.  I recall reading here that the minimum rollout for a putt coming over a one foot ridge is 14 feet, so any cup within, say, 6 feet of the base of a tier means you can only get within 8 feet.  Similar situations exist when you go over a green. 


I would say there can be a place where you can't get up and down.  I call it strategy, knowing where to not miss.  I do recall working with tour pros and low handicappers who would walk around a green in the dirt with one question...."What if I hit it here?"  So, they obviously believe that they should be able to get close to the pin from anywhere. I understand it.  The point of golf is to get the ball in the hole and hole locations where you can't do that are sort of counterintuitive to most.


Jim Colbert used to have me put in holes where there was a pond one side, and a fw chipping area on the other as a tempting bailout, with the green sloping to the water steeply (i.e., 2.5% or so) to make it tricky to hold the green from the bailout area.  I'm not sure I agree with that......at least the steep slope where you could pond the ball from the bailout.  IMHO, a bailout usually ought to let you on the green.  It's more exciting to have a chance to recover par over making a certain double when playing safe. 


It's part of the old RTJ easy bogey hard par mantra.  It also depends on what your design brief is.  If it is a public course, maybe there shouldn't be too many if any intentional places where you miss and the hole location means that a large number of C and D players may take 5 or 6 putts is to be avoided for speed of play reasons.  There is a reason supers don't put cups on top of mounds, etc. 


For public courses like that, I would compromise, and maybe put a few greens where the major defense/challenge is putting.  However, a steady diet of that would likely tee off too many golfers, but they see a few as memorable variety.



Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Brian Ross

  • Karma: +0/-0
« Last Edit: July 17, 2022, 03:32:29 PM by Brian Ross »
Time is but the stream I go a-fishing in.

http://www.rossgolfarchitects.com

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should You Always Be Able to Putt or Chip Dead to the Hole?
« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2022, 03:32:41 PM »
I wonder what percentage of lessons given by pro’s are putting and short game lessons? Just curious. :)
Atb

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should You Always Be Able to Putt or Chip Dead to the Hole?
« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2022, 04:25:04 PM »
Absolutely not.


Photo Credit: https://twitter.com/robmillertime/status/1548720065310298117


I recall watching this and thinking if that was Tiger in his prime, he would have hit a flop shot here!  ;D

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should You Always Be Able to Putt or Chip Dead to the Hole?
« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2022, 04:48:20 PM »
Kalen


I suspect you are joking. I'm pretty sure Tiger would have played it the same way. What differentiated Tiger from the rest IMHO was his golfing IQ and his putting. He was good at weighing up risks and playing to his strengths. Rory on the other hand has a propensity to go for the Hollywood shot, although in fairness what did for him today was that he was simply outplayed.


Niall

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should You Always Be Able to Putt or Chip Dead to the Hole?
« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2022, 05:22:40 PM »
Kalen

I suspect you are joking. I'm pretty sure Tiger would have played it the same way. What differentiated Tiger from the rest IMHO was his golfing IQ and his putting. He was good at weighing up risks and playing to his strengths. Rory on the other hand has a propensity to go for the Hollywood shot, although in fairness what did for him today was that he was simply outplayed.

Niall

Only mostly joking.  Tiger would have stalked it and given the flop option serious consideration, before picking the smarter choice.

However, Cam was a shot ahead of Rory at this point and certainly didn't need to take on the extra risk, as he didn't have to have that par...

P.S.  I will disagree with how the end result played out.  Cam got super hot with the putter on the back 9 and made several putts over 10 feet, including the par saver on 17.  It reminded me of Retief Goosen at Shinnecock when he won the US Open.  Rory just couldn't buy a putt all day long and effectively only needed 1 one of them to drop to force a tie (I know he parred 18, but he had to be super aggressive on the chip over the valley of sin to get the eagle, and likely could have birdied otherwise)

JohnVDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should You Always Be Able to Putt or Chip Dead to the Hole?
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2022, 07:17:47 PM »
Phil would have flopped it.