Augusta has a chance to be a remarkable course. Remove the trees/ most bunkers.

[Jason Thurman]

What problem are we trying to solve here?


I must've missed all the sideways chip-outs and the up-and-downs attempted from the woods... I didn't fail to notice the effect of the course's topography though, on both the macro (e.g., 10 fairway) and micro (e.g., 7 green) scale.

Just want the best it can be without excusing things.

Cool. Make your case. You got any examples of shots that would've been more interesting if some trees hadn't been there, or if a bunker had been removed?


Because there were some pretty damn memorable and entertaining shots that were enhanced by trees and/or sand. Did you watch any of the action on 18 this week, for example?

[Joel_Stewart]

This is going in the GCA Hall of Fame for the one of the worst threads in history.


I can't wait for your next idea after the Open championship at St. Andrews.  "St. Andrews would be a remarkable course if they planted trees".

[Jim_Coleman]

This is going in the GCA Hall of Fame for the one of the worst threads in history.


I can't wait for your next idea after the Open championship at St. Andrews.  "St. Andrews would be a remarkable course if they planted trees".

+1. If Mike were in charge, they’d “fix” Swinley Forest and rename it Swinley Pasture

[V_Halyard]

What problem are we trying to solve here?


I must've missed all the sideways chip-outs and the up-and-downs attempted from the woods... I didn't fail to notice the effect of the course's topography though, on both the macro (e.g., 10 fairway) and micro (e.g., 7 green) scale.

Just want the best it can be without excusing things.

Cool. Make your case. You got any examples of shots that would've been more interesting if some trees hadn't been there, or if a bunker had been removed?


Because there were some pretty damn memorable and entertaining shots that were enhanced by trees and/or sand. Did you watch any of the action on 18 this week, for example?

I making popcorn and having Siri read this thread aloud.

[Sean_A]

This is going in the GCA Hall of Fame for the one of the worst threads in history.


I can't wait for your next idea after the Open championship at St. Andrews.  "St. Andrews would be a remarkable course if they planted trees".

+1. If Mike were in charge, they’d “fix” Swinley Forest and rename it Swinley Pasture

Funny you say that as the club has removed loads of trees.

Anytime I see a touring pro having no choice but to poke a shot into the fairway is a time when there are too many trees/bushes. Why? Because that isn't entertaining. The right trees well placed and properly maintained enhance a course. As soon as a green wall effect is created the cart is in front of the horse. Then there are issues of viewing and aesthetics.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Might be worth a scroll through this thread to see where the trees and bunkers once were - https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51383.0.html
Atb

[mike_malone]

This is going in the GCA Hall of Fame for the one of the worst threads in history.


I can't wait for your next idea after the Open championship at St. Andrews.  "St. Andrews would be a remarkable course if they planted trees".

My impetus for this was your photos on Instagram.

[mike_malone]

Scrolling through that thread I found this.


https://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/wexler-daniel-augusta/


This is a tour de force.

[mike_malone]

What problem are we trying to solve here?


I must've missed all the sideways chip-outs and the up-and-downs attempted from the woods... I didn't fail to notice the effect of the course's topography though, on both the macro (e.g., 10 fairway) and micro (e.g., 7 green) scale.

Just want the best it can be without excusing things.

Cool. Make your case. You got any examples of shots that would've been more interesting if some trees hadn't been there, or if a bunker had been removed?


Because there were some pretty damn memorable and entertaining shots that were enhanced by trees and/or sand. Did you watch any of the action on 18 this week, for example?

I recall at least a couple of punch outs under some low hanging tree on the right of 18. Bubba hit a wonderful shot but that’s my point. It’s all luck.

[Joe Bausch]

   This thread was predictable. We must radically change one of the greatest and most iconic courses in the world. Pathetic.

Are we talking about Rolling Green?!


Ironic that one of the people that helped change RG and take it to a much higher level started this thread.  And one of the detractors of this thread is a person that, well, was not a strident supporter of those changes.

[jeffwarne]

Mike -

Assuming all/most of the trees were removed, what would you like or expect to see in those areas? Grass cut at fairway height? Grass cut at "2nd cut" height? Pine straw? Sandy waste areas?


DT

and in walks the 800 lb gorilla.......
This question certainly deserves an answer, but alas, often it's a "what now?

[mike_malone]

A great architect with a sense of the history of Augusta could easily decide those things.


I would like to see more ground game and random difficulty for all in an area.


The inevitable tinkering would be to change the mix of grass heights and pine straw.

[mike_malone]

Mike -

Assuming all/most of the trees were removed, what would you like or expect to see in those areas? Grass cut at fairway height? Grass cut at "2nd cut" height? Pine straw? Sandy waste areas?


DT

and in walks the 800 lb gorilla.......
This question certainly deserves an answer, but alas, often it's a "what now?

I totally missed Dave’s post. Thanks.

[jeffwarne]

Mike -

Assuming all/most of the trees were removed, what would you like or expect to see in those areas? Grass cut at fairway height? Grass cut at "2nd cut" height? Pine straw? Sandy waste areas?


DT

and in walks the 800 lb gorilla.......
This question certainly deserves an answer, but alas, often it's a "what now?

I totally missed Dave’s post. Thanks.

[Jason Thurman]

Anytime I see a touring pro having no choice but to poke a shot into the fairway is a time when there are too many trees/bushes. Why? Because that isn't entertaining. The right trees well placed and properly maintained enhance a course. As soon as a green wall effect is created the cart is in front of the horse. Then there are issues of viewing and aesthetics.

Really? Even a single pitch-out means we have too many trees? A single unexciting shot is too many?


We should only cut pins on mounds. Tap in putts aren't exciting. Any putt of less than 4 feet risks boredom.


And get rid of challenging hazards too. I've seen guys play sideways from the Road Hole bunker. Snooze. Grass it over.

[Mark_Fine]

The thing I learned to appreciate the most from playing so many different courses is to embrace the diversity. Thank goodness golf is not like many other sports where you’ve seen one playing field you’ve seen them all.  The variety of grounds of where golf is played is what makes it so special.  From a mountain course like Wade Hampton to a links course like St. Andrews to a parkland course like Winged Foot to a seaside layout like Bandon Dunes to an inland links like Sunningdale to a heathland course like Royal Ashdown Forest to treelined course like Sahalee to a desert course like Talking Stick to a housing development track like Long Cove,…the list goes on and on. They all exhibit most of the wonderful aspects and varieties of golf yet they way they present/exemplify them is very different.  Wouldn’t it be sad if they all looked kind of the same

[Kalen Braley]

I think one of GCA's blind spots is trees on the golf course, specifically that it doesn't need to be a binary all or nothing thing.  Sure for some courses like TOC, no trees is great but for most others it should be a well-balanced proposition.

I think that's all Mike was really advocating.  Less trees, a few less bunkers, trim up the over grown ones and ones that affect sight lines...and let the natural contours shine more.

And if it could work at any course it would be Augusta, because approach angles really do matter.  Sean is spot on here, what's more exciting to watch? A player chipping out or trying a difficult recovery at the green that could end up woefully out of position for the next, or a chance to be the hero.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I’m reminded of the thrill of the President’s Cup at Royal Melbourne. The greens at Augusta would thrill if longer recovery shots were allowed from many angles.

Wouldn't that be anti-strategic?


If the ANGC tradition is to constantly tinker in reaction to how pro players play the course, do any of the suggestions to take it back to 1933 or so really honor that?  I mean, somewhere in the universe there is probably a need for a course to keep its bones and tweak it's muscles as an architectural philosophy and ANGC makes a logical candidate.

[Edward Glidewell]

It's not like the fairways at Augusta are 20 yards wide and if you miss that tiny target you're stymied by trees.


There's plenty of width, so if you hit a poor shot that ends up in the trees, why is that a problem? It's no different than any other hazard.


I think removing most or all of the trees would actually make the Masters less entertaining, not more.

[Mark_Fine]

While there are some trees there I don't care for, many of the most exciting recovery shots were from the pine straw in the trees or the bunkers which are not natural on that golf course. 

I am always reminded of the quote from William Flynn regarding trees, "It is impossible to conceive that the "Canny Scots" would have denuded their courses of trees if there had been any there originally.  As a race, they are entirely too thrifty for any such waste as that".


It cost a lot of money to take down trees. Most of the ones I take down have been planted and were not there in the first place. 

[Jason Thurman]

I think one of GCA's blind spots is trees on the golf course, specifically that it doesn't need to be a binary all or nothing thing.  Sure for some courses like TOC, no trees is great but for most others it should be a well-balanced proposition.

I think that's all Mike was really advocating.  Less trees, a few less bunkers, trim up the over grown ones and ones that affect sight lines...and let the natural contours shine more.

And if it could work at any course it would be Augusta, because approach angles really do matter.  Sean is spot on here, what's more exciting to watch? A player chipping out or trying a difficult recovery at the green that could end up woefully out of position for the next, or a chance to be the hero.

I'm with all that, right up to the point where we're talking about Augusta specifically, and holding up the strawman of "chipping out vs. trying difficult recoveries." I can't think of a course that consistently produces more entertaining recovery shots than Augusta National. The trees are tall pines, limbed up, that generally allow for found balls, swing paths, and windows.


I can't think of a chip out from this week, whereas I can think of Bubba's approach to 18, Rory's approach to 18, Rory's second shot on 8 on Sunday, Phil's shot on 13 years ago, Bubba's shot on 10 years ago, Matsuyama's final round approach to 11 last year, Tiger's approaches to 14 over and over in 2019, and again in the first round this week, Scheffler's hook around the trees on 15 Sunday, and even shots like a perfectly carved drive on 2 or 10 that, as a TV viewer, are enhanced by the periphery that outlines what that perfect shape looks like.


If we were watching guys search for balls all weekend before they hacked it back into play, then sure. Count me on team "let's trim the place up." But... that's not what happens at Augusta.

[David_Tepper]

"Sure for some courses like TOC, no trees is great but for most others it should be a well-balanced proposition."



While TOC does not have trees, it does have gorse in a number of areas. In terms of playability, gorse is a far worse feature than trees. Hitting a ball into gorse more often than not results in a lost ball or a drop with a penalty stroke. Hitting a ball into a stand of trees more often than not allows some chance to advance the ball forward and rarely results in a lost ball or penalty stroke.

Is Mike M. or anyone advocating TOC (or any other links) remove all their gorse?

At the very least, AGNC needs to widen the chute in front of  18th tee.

[mike_malone]

https://open.spotify.com/episode/6ZjC4sYKNlBPo57XDA8rMg


Go to 26 minutes 27 seconds and let’s hear what Bob Crosby has to say.

[mike_malone]

While there are some trees there I don't care for, many of the most exciting recovery shots were from the pine straw in the trees or the bunkers which are not natural on that golf course. 

I am always reminded of the quote from William Flynn regarding trees, "It is impossible to conceive that the "Canny Scots" would have denuded their courses of trees if there had been any there originally.  As a race, they are entirely too thrifty for any such waste as that".


It cost a lot of money to take down trees. Most of the ones I take down have been planted and were not there in the first place.

What we don’t hear from Flynn is where to put or keep those trees. I’m pretty sure he preferred bunches for doglegs and otherwise to “ provide a backdrop, separate holes, and provide shade on a hot day”.

[mike_malone]

Can’t seem to properly post a photo.