What was the demarcation of harder is not better in modern golf architecture?

[Tim Martin]

It seems to be sometime after the advent of “minimalism” as in 2004 Ed Seay designed Gillette Ridge in Bloomfield, Connecticut for Arnold Palmer Golf in a border town to where I live. It opened to some acclaim but it’s reputation changed in the ensuing years to way too hard to be fun. It has eleven forced carries and nothing I would call a breather hole. The example is not meant to be a hit piece on Gillette but rather an example that clients and or some architects were still promoting “exceedingly hard” is the way to go as late as 2004. What say those in the know?

[Charlie Ray]

From my little perspective as a resort/public golfer:  When ''dream' courses like Crystal Downs (6,500 yards), NGLA, (6,600 yards), Chicago (6,600 yards) began to climb and surpass courses like Medina #3 and Firestone in the early 00’s is the answer.  I believe this trend allowed some to rethink why Kiawah and Whistling Straits were lauded as top resort courses.  Pacific Dunes (6,600 yards) cemented the trend that fun was more successful than hard.  For example, as a young man in Louisiana, I knew and read about the International (8,000+ yards) (the Pines at the International?) around the turn of the century.  Why?  Because ‘resistance to scoring’ was prized. 
I saved my nickels and dimes to play the Prince Course (Kauai) in 2002.  Golf Digest’s ranking had it somewhere in the top 40 in the US.  I ran out of balls.  I did not enjoy the experience.  20 years later when a playing partner told me at Gamble Sands that it couldn’t be a great course because the slope was <120, I suggested that he go buy the defunct Prince Course. 
This is from a consumer perspective, instead of the architect/designer's; however, which one drives the other? 

[Mike Hendren]

Sawgrass?

[MCirba]

When there started to be more sand and water than grass?

[Peter Sayegh]

To me, I think Mr. Cirba nailed it.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I sensed it was when Golf Digest revamped their top 100 criteria away from difficulty.  That said, I think they revamped it because Golf, Golf Week, etc. had come up with different systems that favored classic and more playable courses.


I'm not sure there was a definitive moment, but rather an accumulation of different events.  Another important moment might have been the Pebble Beach Open in '92, which I think was the first time the USGA experimented with short grass around greens for a variety of recovery shots, vs. all 4"+ rough for difficulty.  Of course, that was also probably somewhat reactionary to something else or idea that had taken hold, but I don't recall what.

[Tom_Doak]

When Pacific Dunes opened, I was often asked (including here on GCA) if it wasn’t too easy to be considered a great course?  Now some people say it’s too hard!  So times have definitely changed.


I will disagree with Jeff B that GOLF DIGEST had anything to do with it.  Their modifications were designed to make their list converge better with where public opinion had already gone.

[Cliff Hamm]

The building of and success of the Bandan Dunes courses.  Folks discovered that high-quality golf need not be so difficult and could actually be fun.

[Tim_Weiman]

When there started to be more sand and water than grass?


Mike,


Wow! That is ugly.

[MCirba]

What percentage of average golfers who tried to hit the island fairway on this hole succeeded?

[Kyle Harris]

What percentage of average golfers who tried to hit the island fairway on this hole succeeded?

And what percentage of them have subsequently hit the green.

[MCirba]

Kyle,


Correct.


Also, which % was lower...those trying to hit the island fairway or the "safe" play down the right between water left and right where the shorter drive is punished more severely than the longer one?

[Peter Pallotta]

I read somewhere that the median age of American golfers is currently about 55. Since those who started playing golf as youngsters were probably at their best around 30, I'd guess that the 'harder is not better' demarcation happened 25 years ago, ie, 1997 -- which perhaps not coincidentally is when the Masters started trying to Tiger-proof Augusta, with so many other courses soon following suit. PS - I just went to check: the first Bandon course opened in '99, and the second in '01 -- so maybe the 'median age' and 'golfer's prime' numbers are a bit off.

[Ally Mcintosh]

What percentage of average golfers who tried to hit the island fairway on this hole succeeded?

What’s NOT fun about this hole; IF - as the GCA mantra states - scorecard and pencil means nothing and it’s just about “hitting shots that make you smile”?


Facetiousness aside, I do think this is a good thread because the prevailing mentality did change at some point. But I do also question this binary attitude that a golf course either has to be fun or difficult, not both.

[Tim Martin]

But I do also question this binary attitude that a golf course either has to be fun or difficult, not both.

Ally-I think your quote above is spot on. Finding that balance between fun and difficult is the challenge for every architect. Players want fun but I don’t think they want “easy”.

[Jeff Schley]

When courses started calling themselves, "a championship par 72 course".

[Sven Nilsen]

What percentage of average golfers who tried to hit the island fairway on this hole succeeded?

There is nothing modern about that one.  A classic channel hole.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I will disagree with Jeff B that GOLF DIGEST had anything to do with it.  Their modifications were designed to make their list converge better with where public opinion had already gone.

I think my post alluded to that possibility.....but GD was the most read magazine of the day, so at least, it may have introduced the concept to the most average golfers to start changing the mindset.

[Niall C]

What percentage of average golfers who tried to hit the island fairway on this hole succeeded?

There is nothing modern about that one.  A classic channel hole.

If I'm correct that is the hole on King's North in Myrtle Beach which makes it one of the few holes in the US that I've played. In my fourball, only one person tried for the island and then they managed to hit the green. The rest of us schelpped the ball up the right handside. Even then it is a tricky approach.


Niall

[Jeff_Brauer]

1 - I am assuming the first hole is the famous RTJ hole in Myrtle Beach?  Designed when?


2 - Re the Kings North hole, perhaps worth a strategy discussion, but to my eye, while I understand hitting island saves a stroke by reaching a par 5 in 2 shots, in theory, shouldn't the safe route be, well......, a bit safer?  You can find water left and right, and going long puts you in a sand bunker rather than rolling into a pond.......I would think that to make the choice a bit more dramatic, there should be very little chance of getting into trouble on the long way around.


Thoughts?

[Edward Glidewell]

What percentage of average golfers who tried to hit the island fairway on this hole succeeded?

I actually enjoy that golf course, but that hole doesn't really work. Even if you hit the island fairway, you still have an incredibly difficult second shot. There's not enough benefit to risk it for 99% of golfers.

[Brett Meyer]

What percentage of average golfers who tried to hit the island fairway on this hole succeeded?

I actually enjoy that golf course, but that hole doesn't really work. Even if you hit the island fairway, you still have an incredibly difficult second shot. There's not enough benefit to risk it for 99% of golfers.

Indeed. I went for and hit the island fairway with a 2-iron hybrid. But my second shot was so long and the green at such an awkward angle from there that I ended up laying up back to the main fairway, making the whole thing a waste! I guess you could fault me for going for it but compromising and taking less club off the tee.

As silly as it looks, trying to hit that island fairway is one of the most thrilling shots that I've played. They just need to shift the angle of the green to favor a shot from there and maybe make it a bit bigger so that there'd be a reward consummate with the risk.

[MCirba]

There is nothing modern about that one.  A classic channel hole.

Perhaps as designed by Dr. Frankenstein, not Dr. MacKenzie! 

None of the angles work and there is really no safe play.


Heading out your way this September, Sven...hoping you're in the neighborhood.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I wonder what effect Sand Hills had. It is no pushover but it is great fun and a joy to play. It does not beat the player up but gives him places to shine.

[Stewart Abramson]

1 - I am assuming the first hole is the famous RTJ hole in Myrtle Beach?  Designed when?

I don't think the first photo in this thread is of the famous 13th hole at RTJ's Dunes in Myrtle Beach, which opened in 1949. The hole at the Dunes does not have the minefield of bunkers on the left side. It has three smaller bunkers around the green.



Dunes #13 par 5  long approach