Short par threes, different tees.

[Ed Brzezowski]

We built a short, 125 yards, new par three at my course two years ago. Modeled after Flynn's 11th at Shinny since we are a Flynn course.


We are considering adding another tee to get the yardage to 145-155. But it alters the tee shot making the bunkers on the left side of the green crossing bunkers. So the green would be a diagonal target instead of head on as it is from the 125 yard tee.


Getting lots of pushback from some folks saying a par three should only have one playing angle and only one.


thoughts? 




thanks guys

[MCirba]

It's good as is, Ed.


Just need to turn the next hole into a par five.

[Ed Brzezowski]

that started last october    bunkers going in next month.






This issue was raised by our players demanding" more length".

[MCirba]

Take them to Ardmore and show them the 13th.

If they don't like that turn your 18th into a par four. 

[mike_malone]

Flynn loved angled carries over bunkers to par three greens. As long as there is green to land on I like the idea.




When I look at Shinny 11 I see no bunker in the back left with angled bunkers in front right. ConcordCC seems very different now. I imagine you are considering putting the tee closer to 14 green. If the green slopes up to those left bunkers then it might be nice. It would remind me of RG 12. 

[Tommy Williamsen]

I'm not sure that 11 at Shinnecock could use a different tee. I can't think of a different angle I'd like to come in from. Is it uphill too? I do, however, like  that option on par threes. It makes them more interesting on different days. It doesn't always work well though. I am particularly thinking of nine at Kingsley.

[Ed Brzezowski]

Yes Tommy, uphill and into a prevailing wind. The new tee, if constructed, would be a crosswind to a green depth of about 18-20 yards. New tee also uphill.

[Ed Brzezowski]

Flynn loved angled carries over bunkers to par three greens. As long as there is green to land on I like the idea.




When I look at Shinny 11 I see no bunker in the back left with angled bunkers in front right. ConcordCC seems very different now. I imagine you are considering putting the tee closer to 14 green. If the green slopes up to those left bunkers then it might be nice. It would remind me of RG 12.

Actually the other way, left of the current tee box. Might also get a bit more sun there.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I remember a par 3 at Carnoustie that had two tees, one from each side of the previous green.  I don't see why a hole should play the same every day.  In the case of the par 3, it was a cold day, and two of us used each tee to get our tee shots to the green faster.  If only all par 3 holes had that option, maybe it would speed up play.

[JNagle]

Ed,


The alternate tee is more about gaining surface area.  With the rounds of play at CCC (nearly 30,000) we need the space.  Agreed the tee is further to the left but added distance is not the driving force. 

[Tom_Doak]

I have seen a few par-3 holes that worked well from tees at different angles, but not too many.  Whether it works well depends a lot on the shape of the green and the contours; often a small green is too difficult to hold from a "wrong" angle.


The first that come to mind are the 9th at Kingsley, the 11th at St. Andrews Beach, and the 5th at Woodhall Spa -- although we had them abandon the old tee on the left at Woodhall Spa because it was in such a tight spot between the 2nd and 4th greens!

[Ed Brzezowski]

Ed,


The alternate tee is more about gaining surface area.  With the rounds of play at CCC (nearly 30,000) we need the space.  Agreed the tee is further to the left but added distance is not the driving force.

agree      and this was a what if spitballing question

[mike_malone]

Flynn loved angled carries over bunkers to par three greens. As long as there is green to land on I like the idea.






When I look at Shinny 11 I see no bunker in the back left with angled bunkers in front right. ConcordCC seems very different now. I imagine you are considering putting the tee closer to 14 green. If the green slopes up to those left bunkers then it might be nice. It would remind me of RG 12.

Actually the other way, left of the current tee box. Might also get a bit more sun there.

Left looks good if the green is titled up to accept the shot over those bunkers. That would be more similar to Shinnecock but on the right not left. Good luck.

[Dan Delaney 🐮]

This issue was raised by our players demanding" more length".

Want me to crack some heads, Breeze? LOL


If the proposed tee is where I think it will be, I think it would be a great option for those guys who have the game to hit that shot… but maybe not everyone for everyday play.


Amazing the work that’s been done since I left in 2007. Bittersweet in a way (it’s no longer what I grew up on), but such a remarkable improvement in every way possible.

[Jon Claydon]

I have seen a few par-3 holes that worked well from tees at different angles, but not too many.  Whether it works well depends a lot on the shape of the green and the contours; often a small green is too difficult to hold from a "wrong" angle.


The first that come to mind are the 9th at Kingsley, the 11th at St. Andrews Beach, and the 5th at Woodhall Spa -- although we had them abandon the old tee on the left at Woodhall Spa because it was in such a tight spot between the 2nd and 4th greens!

#2 at Dunes Club works from both tees IMHO

[Bill Seitz]

Getting lots of pushback from some folks saying a par three should only have one playing angle and only one.


thoughts? 

As Tom noted it probably depends on the shape of the green and whether it can accept shots from the new angle.  One reason the 9th at Kingsley works is because the green was built at the same time the tees were built.  It's always had two distinct playing angles, and it's a credit to the hole that both are used all the time.  One example added to a pre-existing green that everyone should be familiar with is the 16th at Torrey Pines South.  Sounds somewhat like your example going from a head on approach to one where you have fly over some bunkers.  Seems to work fine, but I'm not sure if they made any changes to the green at the same time to accommodate the new tee.

[Ed Brzezowski]

This issue was raised by our players demanding" more length".

Want me to crack some heads, Breeze? LOL


If the proposed tee is where I think it will be, I think it would be a great option for those guys who have the game to hit that shot… but maybe not everyone for everyday play.


Amazing the work that’s been done since I left in 2007. Bittersweet in a way (it’s no longer what I grew up on), but such a remarkable improvement in every way possible.

Hello Dan,


Indeed, we have made great strides over the past ten years, and the best is still to come. Sorry I missed you last summer at Stonewall. Give me a call and lets show you what we have done.


ed

[David Ober]

FWIW, I love the concept of an additional tee/angle on certain par 3 holes.

[Mark Kiely]

I recall a par 3 at SunRidge Canyon (Keith Foster, Fountain Hills, AZ) that has two different tees that play from 90-degree different angles. Seems like par 3s over lakes also often offer different angles playing from an array of distances around the water's edge.

[Thomas Dai]

Be an interesting if laborious exercise to catalogue every par-3 by distance. I reckon loads would be of similar distance and likely the same course would have the majority if not all at similar distances as well. Boring.
Shorties, longies, quirk including odd angles please.
Atb

[Kyle Harris]

The 5th at Huntingdon Valley is a Flynn that does this, though, that was an evolution which stemmed from a few changes by Ross/McGovern many years later.


For the better, might I add.

[V. Kmetz]

I had trouble with the photo, making the contribution a bit untimely yet I wanted to put forward one of these unique presentations.


This is 5th hole at Brae Burn Country Club (Frank Duane 1965) which until they broke it up into sections (2013-4), probably had the single longest continuous tee box in the land, if not the world... used to measure like continuous 120 yards.... The teeing ground is the "down facing hockey stick" which you can discern near the bottom of the photo (vectoring from one end of the pond to the other, then ducking back in the "blade" of the hockey stick).


From the far left end, the hole plays 123... and most often nearly straight downwind (WNW)...From the various ranges of the long stick handle it goes about 135 - 145.... from the tip of the blade, it plays nearly 175 and now that routine WNW wind is pushing the shot towards "right field."

Mention has been made in the thread of how such different 1-shot teeing grounds coordinate with the green surface and here that component is smartly designed... It is hard to convey in words, but the green is a concave potato chip with two massive tapered swells - one across the front of the surface, and one protruding across the back of the surface; they create a "valley" of sorts that snakes diagonally along the "foot" of each swell, across the entire green...

From the far left short tee (123), the shorter, lofted (and more straight downwind) shot must clear the center bunker and be precisely "dropped" into that valley. less the ball go careening off the front swell into what can be exacting downhill putts... From the extreme back right of the tee/(stick blade 175), one gets the forbearance of a good reception into that valley and can use the green slopes to control the final position of the ball...

In essence, the shorter shot has a great deal of side to side breadth for error, but downwind distance control is paramount for scoring... from the longer distance and differing angle, the longer hit brings a far more severe punishment (bunker, water) for side to side inaccuracy, but if you can hit a straight ball of less precise distance, you can be assured on a reasonable result in the center of the green.

Editorial:  Of course I speak with the bias of more than 1500 rounds at Brae Burn, but there's so much to recommend it as a wonderful course for appreciation and study.  This was Frank Duane's first solo design after being a top lieutenant to the RTJ shop, and though he did execute a few other local designs in the years after, he contracted Gullane Barre syndrome 3 weeks before Brae Burn opened, forever sentencing him to a wheelchair, and a lessened, more anonymous career.  Though the design zeitgeist of courses made in the RTJ-Course Beautiful-Hard Par/Simple Bogey is in disfavor on this board, Brae Burn is a joyful thesis on the virtues of those designs, while retaining unique ambience and quirk in its routed bones.

*** I found a link to a piece I composed for a history journal that covers a unique feature of Brae Burn and specifically that 5th tee (which was the 14th for its first two seasons before a nines-reversal)***

http://pooryorickjournal.com/the-ghost-of-the-westchester-northern-by-vincent-p-kmetz/ 

There is no paywall (LoL).

[Jeff Schley]

Be an interesting if laborious exercise to catalogue every par-3 by distance. I reckon loads would be of similar distance and likely the same course would have the majority if not all at similar distances as well. Boring.
Shorties, longies, quirk including odd angles please.
Atb

Thomas great suggestion, YOUR ON IT!
Former coach I worked with would hear all kinds of great suggestions from other coaches and he would say this. All the sudden people don't suggest as much if they know they have to do the work.  haha.

[Jerry Kluger]

The second par 3, I believe it is number 6, at Ballyneal has a tee box which is almost horseshoe shaped and allows for tee shots from quite a few different angles - it has a few bunkers one of which is almost a pot bunker and can be directly in line with the pin depending upon where you tee off from.  Ballyneal did not have any tee markers so we would have the player with the low score on each hole select where we would tee off from on the next hole which is great fun.

[Anthony Gray]

 Most players like variety. Like different pin placements. Different pin placements can change how the hole is played. Tee boxes can do the same. If the tee boxes don’t give variety then a course without wind can be the same course everyday.