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Steve Lapper

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Re: USGA Women's Open to new venues
« Reply #25 on: January 08, 2022, 06:55:02 AM »


 Growth of the game among women has to start at public venues, just as it does for men.



That's an interesting premise and I have never really thought about it that way, but it begs the question -- does anyone know of a public venue that does anywhere close to 50% women's play?


  Great premise and question.


  I'm sure some of you are aware of grass roots golf organizations that are female-focused. One of the larger ones, Greuter Golf, started in my backyard and is currently growing near exponentially since 2018. Founded by a smart, social-media savvy nurse practitioner (HSS) and several of her friends, this community, with chapters in NYC, Boston, Chicago has attracted a wide swath of women from all walks of life. They've been wildly successful recruiting from experienced thru newbies and are converting a good number of newly-hooked golfers at a previously unheard of rate. It's both at and beyond the concept of some weekly league. I've heard of similar communities starting up in other cities and regions throughout the county. COVID's golf boom certainly has helped promote this as well.


  Greuter Golf primarily plays at public or municipal courses, and they schedule dozens of mini (and full) outings near weekly. Several well-off private courses have begun hosting them as well. The attractiveness of this new golfer demographic isn't going un-noticed, yet manufacturers and other stodgy old golf industry types have yet to fully understand how to address it.


  Interestingly, as they grow, they are rapidly learning what their leverage is and how to use to their advantage. Some public operators have even noticed the increased interest shown by existing male golfers looking to book tee times near theirs. Ultimately, my guess is it will lead to some forward-thinking public operator who starts to proactively cordon off time for women's golf.....a practice almost heretically reserved for a half-a-day at private clubs.


  Given all the perceived prejudices inherent in past practices, and the considerable time necessary for the game, I don't know when or if we'll see 50% women's play, yet it is growing faster than ever before from its historical basement. Thats a really good thing IMO.


« Last Edit: January 08, 2022, 07:10:55 AM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Mike_Trenham

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Re: USGA Women's Open to new venues
« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2022, 07:27:38 AM »
Hopefully the USGA will also improve the revenue model for the host clubs and make into a profitable venture for the host clubs.


I’m in the camp of smaller markets and courses unable to adequately contain the men.  Lancaster and Newport are perfect examples. I will say the women do value getting certain clubs known as US Open (men’s) venues to host their event gives them credibility.
Proud member of a Doak 3.

Ronald Montesano

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Re: USGA Women's Open to new venues
« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2022, 08:19:41 AM »
How much mansplaining is going on in this thread?

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David_Tepper

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Re: USGA Women's Open to new venues
« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2022, 10:55:54 AM »
"I will say the women do value getting certain clubs known as US Open (men’s) venues to host their event gives them credibility."

Mike T. -

Yes, based on what I heard and read when the USWO was at Olympic this past June, a number of the women were excited to be able to play a course that has hosted so many Men's Opens and has so much history. Some of the women were also happy to play a course that was tougher than the ones they usually play.

DT
« Last Edit: January 08, 2022, 01:41:01 PM by David_Tepper »

Kalen Braley

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Re: USGA Women's Open to new venues
« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2022, 10:57:41 AM »
I've played the vast majority of my golf on public courses and I'd be surprised if even 10% of the golfers are women, much less 50.

I totally think women are one of the keys to "growing the game", I'm just not sure how it will be accomplished.


Rob Marshall

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Re: USGA Women's Open to new venues
« Reply #32 on: January 08, 2022, 12:18:08 PM »
They need to find a way to get attendance at women's LPGA events. We had one in Rochester for 30+ years and it was a great time, packed with spectators every year and they pulled it. The women players were not happy when they lost Rochester because they got great support from the town. I have buddy who has been the their season finally at Tiburon the last few years and he says it's a ghost town. No one goes.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Rory Connaughton

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Re: USGA Women's Open to new venues
« Reply #33 on: January 08, 2022, 12:45:07 PM »
Mike and Phil,


This change in direction is definitely exciting. Who doesn't want to watch the best women golfers in the world play Riviera, MGC etc.


There are some secondary markets that have done very well with the event. Colorado Springs, Bethlehem and Lancaster among them.


Lancaster, not just the club but also the community, has really bought into the notion of being at the top table when it comes to women's championship golf. Our approach is to meet and exceed the numbers we did in 2015 in attendance (135,000), corporate and merchandise and make sure that the players and the USGA have an incredible experience on and off the course.


At the conclusion of 2015 we did a member survey and 94% opined that the event exceeded their expectations and 98% said they would do it again. Our overall customer satisfaction survey had similar results. I'm hopeful that this means that we will achieve our goals for 2024 because remaining relevant as a potential host venue when you do not have the history of some of the recently announced venues (from a Major Championship perspective) is going to require not just a good but a great championship every time the opportunity is presented. This is going to be the case for all secondary market hosts.


I think the work that we are doing with Forse Design this winter will certainly keep us in the game from the perspective of course quality.

MCirba

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Re: USGA Women's Open to new venues
« Reply #34 on: January 08, 2022, 12:52:41 PM »
Rory,


Very much looking forward to seeing the winter work.  Congrats!
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: USGA Women's Open to new venues
« Reply #35 on: January 08, 2022, 02:26:30 PM »
Ron's advance info left out the part in the press release about a new presenting sponsor for the event.

Jeff Schley

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Re: USGA Women's Open to new venues
« Reply #36 on: January 08, 2022, 03:13:15 PM »
A little disappointed the Chicago area didn't get an Open, with all spoken for until 2032 (10 years) at the earliest. No I don't consider Erin Hills a Chicago destination. So while I am grateful they raised the purse and going to some iconic venues it would have been great for Chicago to get a Women's Open.  FYI there have been 3:
2000-Merit Club
1981-LaGrange CC1974-Lagrange CC
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Gib_Papazian

Re: USGA Women's Open to new venues New
« Reply #37 on: January 08, 2022, 03:19:14 PM »
Mike Cirba,


The single biggest determinant of the long-term future economic viability of golf is SPECIFICALLY to get young girls involved - hook them early and often.


It starts at the junior high schools, you have to make coolness and fashion part of the indoctrination. They are hard-wired differently than boys, who are far less nuanced and sophisticated between the ears at that age.


That means, specifically, American girls. One of the reasons nobody gives a shit anymore about tennis (women's too) is the top ranks are overflowing with foreign nationals.


Skating? Foreign nationals . . . .


Nobody cares if Ching Ping Zing wins the Ladies Open - but if Ping Zing is an American with some personality, people will tune in.


Megha Ganne is hardly a whitebread, East Coast country club girl - but if the powers had a functioning brain beneath their dandruff flakes, they would make that irrepressible, cannot-possibly-be-more charming young lady one of the faces of our game.


I want to see Nelly Korda, Danielle Kang and Stacy Lewis on cardboard cut-outs and billboards all over America. Find out what girls are watching and blend them into whatever it is. Dancing with the Stars, who gives a shit?


They are all absolutely lovely, wildly entertaining, articulate and have killer talent. Why are they not household names to young girls in America?


Jan was right - and she got wrongly lambasted for it - stone-faced foreign nationals are/were/continue to "kill the Tour."


At least instruct them - while the LPGA still plays tournaments in this country - to acknowledge the crowd beyond a tiny, robotic wave. Yeah, some do not speak English, but did that stop anybody from rooting hard for Angel Cabrera? Or actually PRAY to God (like me) that Hideki safely hit the 18th fairway at Augusta?


And high schools need to make a serious outreach effort to the local clubs to accommodate all junior golfers. I'll tell you what, I coached both boys and girls for five years . . . . . . young girls actually listen, think and have far greater discipline on average.


Otherwise, without a new crop of eager youngsters in the pipeline, American golf is in for some hard times downstream.


And for gawdsakes, quit trying to appeal only to married couples to join these clubs, who will eventually be gagging for members as the boom/bust cycle continues.


I cannot believe how many single women and their friends hang out at TopGolf. So, the interest is there . . . . just have to move it from the practice tee to the first tee.




             
« Last Edit: January 15, 2022, 07:05:26 PM by Gib Papazian »

JohnVDB

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Re: USGA Women's Open to new venues
« Reply #38 on: January 08, 2022, 07:09:42 PM »
Gob,


In case you weren’t watching the announcement, both Danielle and Megha were on stage answering questions.  Mike Whan knows what it takes.


One thing organizations could learn is not to limit girls opportunities to play in tournaments.  Lots of events have field sizes set for the boys and girls.  When I setup the NCGA Junior Tour, I decided there would be no maximums on the number of girls in the event. We set minimums for each group, if the rest of the filled was girls, so be it.  The parents of the girls loved us for it.

Gib_Papazian

Re: USGA Women's Open to new venues
« Reply #39 on: January 08, 2022, 07:24:33 PM »
Yeah, I was there, every day.


But just putting her ungodly sense of the camera and poise (go rewatch the final round) in front of the cameras once - and parlaying this stunningly likeable girl into the face of women's golf are too different things.


Please, let me be her agent. Please . . . .


BTW, other schools had a difficult time even filling out a girl's varsity squad - let alone the JV team matches we scheduled every week. I'll tell you what, we had a handful of matches that were not only completely non-competitive, but my girls were out there with opposing players, trying to teach them the basics - DURING A MATCH.


Of course, I loudly applauded this afterwards (privately with the kids, so as not to embarrass the opposing players and coach), but that is not the way to help America win the Curtis Cup.


P.S. Shit writing above, I meant to say the GIRLS invariably came to us with more nuanced thinking.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2022, 07:30:43 PM by Gib Papazian »

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USGA Women's Open to new venues
« Reply #40 on: January 08, 2022, 08:14:27 PM »
Jan was right - and she got wrongly lambasted for it - stone-faced foreign nationals are/were/continue to "kill the Tour."

Gib -

Are you sure about that? On what are you basing your opinion?

Frankly I could not disagree more. Thanks to the growth of the game on a global basis, it seems to me women's golf at the professional level has never been healthier and more competitive. Whether American women dominate the game is hardly relevant.

Not sure I agree with you statement about tennis either. Anyone who has not enjoyed watching Federer, Nadal and Djokovic play over the past 15-20 just because they are not Americans is certainly not a tennis fan or even a sports fan.

DT
« Last Edit: January 08, 2022, 08:17:45 PM by David_Tepper »

Tom_Doak

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Re: USGA Women's Open to new venues
« Reply #41 on: January 08, 2022, 08:26:09 PM »
A little disappointed the Chicago area didn't get an Open, with all spoken for until 2032 (10 years) at the earliest. No I don't consider Erin Hills a Chicago destination. So while I am grateful they raised the purse and going to some iconic venues it would have been great for Chicago to get a Women's Open.  FYI there have been 3:
2000-Merit Club
1981-LaGrange CC1974-Lagrange CC


Is there a club in Chicago that has a bid in for the Women's Open?  You can't win if you don't enter.

Rob Marshall

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Re: USGA Women's Open to new venues
« Reply #42 on: January 08, 2022, 11:12:05 PM »
Jan was right - and she got wrongly lambasted for it - stone-faced foreign nationals are/were/continue to "kill the Tour."

Gib -

Are you sure about that? On what are you basing your opinion?

Frankly I could not disagree more. Thanks to the growth of the game on a global basis, it seems to me women's golf at the professional level has never been healthier and more competitive. Whether American women dominate the game is hardly relevant.

Not sure I agree with you statement about tennis either. Anyone who has not enjoyed watching Federer, Nadal and Djokovic play over the past 15-20 just because they are not Americans is certainly not a tennis fan or even a sports fan.

DT



Dave, Then why does no one go watch?



If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Jeff Schley

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Re: USGA Women's Open to new venues
« Reply #43 on: January 09, 2022, 01:51:10 AM »
A little disappointed the Chicago area didn't get an Open, with all spoken for until 2032 (10 years) at the earliest. No I don't consider Erin Hills a Chicago destination. So while I am grateful they raised the purse and going to some iconic venues it would have been great for Chicago to get a Women's Open.  FYI there have been 3:
2000-Merit Club
1981-LaGrange CC1974-Lagrange CC


Is there a club in Chicago that has a bid in for the Women's Open?  You can't win if you don't enter.
Good point, the infrastructure needed nowadays is more significant than back in 2000 for example for this event as well. As Medinah has aligned itself with the PGA most recently and haven't hosted any women's events IIRC, I doubt they were interested as they have the '26 President's Cup coming up. OFCC had the 15 US Am, but not sure if conversations went to hosting the women's open.  Of course Chicago GC wouldn't do it, nor have the room needed probably, same with Shoreacres.

Outside the box ideas would be Cog Hill, although no tournament has been hosted there in quite some time. Merit Club certainly isn't the caliber of competitors to host. A real outside the box idea is Butler allowing women with the announcement they would host a US Women's Open.
So while we lament no Women's Open in Chicago maybe the big boys only are focused on the men's events and the pipe dreams that go with that.

EDIT: I doubt Beverly could have the space to do a US Women's Open, but how about a Am event?
« Last Edit: January 09, 2022, 04:57:18 AM by Jeff Schley »
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Gib_Papazian

Re: USGA Women's Open to new venues
« Reply #44 on: January 09, 2022, 02:49:10 AM »
David T.,


I am absolutely certain that AMERICA is grossly underperforming in the category of producing top women's talent - relative to our resources and our facilities.


Yes, the LPGA and Euro Tours for women are healthy, but go have a look at the leaderboard nearly every week. I don't think USC would scour the world and pass our scholarships to foreign players at the rate it does if Southern California (perfect weather, dripping with top-notch golf facilities) produced 1/10th of the talent it does with boys.


Growth of the global game? Sure you are 100% correct . . . . diminutive South Korea and Sweden know how to produce top-flight talent by the truckload and China is about a 1/2 step behind. But these *are not* the young golfers who will fill the tee sheets and membership roles in THIS country downstream.


All things being equal, Sweden would be a world leader in women's skiing (plenty of that) or skating - they are a chip shot from Santa's Village with a short golf season. Compare theirs (and Korea) per capita output with a comparatively small population. It is all about priorities and we do a shiite job of attracting girls to our game. 


You are an extremely sophisticated world traveler with a global view of golf - and your exposure to foreign youngsters is overweighted with the time you spend at your pad across the Pond.


Maybe it is the fact American kids are more susceptible to hypnosis by technology, maybe not. But the leaderboards on the girls tours every week do not lie.


As for tennis? Sorry, that craze came and went in the 70's . . . . . . America is not producing great tennis players at a rate commensurate with our resources or talent. Quick, name 3 top current tennis players of either sex that are household names . . . . .     


 




 

JNagle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USGA Women's Open to new venues
« Reply #45 on: January 09, 2022, 08:59:07 AM »
The beautiful thing about the Women's Open, and Senior Open, has been the ability for exceptionally designed golf courses to be showcased beyond the US Open and Am.  Now with broadcasting of less popular non-ticketed events, its even more exciting to see places like Brooklawn, Rolling Green and Cedar Rapids getting coverage.  My hope is that the USGA continues to allow places like Lancaster, Newport, The Broadmoor, Saucon Valley, and others to be in the mix for Men's and Women's events.  I agree that there needs to be a public course presence in whatever rotation and course selection the USGA moves forward with.  We are at another moment in time where there is growth that needs to be sustained.  I agree 100% with Mike Cirba that growth begins with girls and women golfers.  We have three projects on the boards for short courses that have become less about practice and more about the growth of the game.


As for Lancaster, it's always an honor to be associated with a club that is constantly looking to their past as they plan for the future of their course.  The club has always kept their focus on maintaining their masterfully designed Flynn course and providing an excellent member experience.  This winter we are further enhancing the course and implementing some Flynn inspired alterations that improve on holes that were altered through land swaps and other internal changes after Flynn passed.  The beauty of what LCC has accomplished through the years is that they always completed the work without spending the sums of monies other courses have spent in order to gain the national attention and tournaments.  The powers that be have never slowed down but have always done things incrementally with great results.   The opening of vistas throughout the property is further revealing the broadly undulating land which will look great on TV.  The subtle changes to the course will enhance exciting play as the risk/reward for certain holes is being elevated.  We always keep an eye on the members at LCC, but its hard to keep the Women's Open out of the conversation when discussing potential changes.  The sequence of holes at LCC made for a very exciting finish to the '15 tournament.  Our hope is that the changes will create greater excitement, scoring opportunities and risk/reward throughout the entire 18.


The club, local and regional residents, corporations...... all seemed to fully enjoy and buy into the '15 Women's Open.  With record attendance, extremely high merchandise sales and a tournament that came down to the end, how can the USGA not consider this club as a partner moving forward.  If '24 is a repeat of '15 its hard to imagine there won't be a return engagement. 
It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USGA Women's Open to new venues
« Reply #46 on: January 09, 2022, 09:11:25 AM »
Girls are the fastest growing segment in U.S. golf, and they have been for maybe 10 years or so. The college scholarship situation from even 10-15 years ago for girls in the U.S. is completely different. There are good American women coming.

And I don't care if there are a ton of great American players. You only ever need a few. A handful. If they're someone like Tiger, one would have done. I was really hoping Michelle Wie could have lived up to half of her promise… as a Korean-heritage American, a smart, tall, athletic gal… she could have elevated the LPGA Tour quite a few notches. But even if she had, we might just now be seeing the results of that, as it takes 10-20 years for the popularity of someone to have a ripple effect. Koreans didn't dominate the LPGA Tour three years after Se Ri Pak.

I think they're coming. And I love the next bunch of venues. Awesome.

Signed,
Father of a daughter who plays golf
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USGA Women's Open to new venues
« Reply #47 on: January 09, 2022, 10:32:11 AM »
Gib -

I agree with much of what you are saying in your last post. However, the ignorant and ill-advised comments of Jan Stephenson from many years ago are not relevant to the issues your raise.

Yes, the U.S. is currently under-represented at the highest levels of women's golf. I suspect the competition from sports like soccer, volleyball and gymnastics draws away many athletically inclined girls who might otherwise excel at golf. If it makes you feel any better, currently 7 of the top 16 women golfers in the World Amateur rankings are from the U.S. :)

https://www.wagr.com/womens-ranking


Speaking of under-performing, there is not one woman from Scotland currently ranked in the World Top 200 of professional golfers.

With regards to tennis, I spent most of the 1970's working in the tennis business. I saw the boom of that era first hand. Again I think you are making a mistake equating the health of a sport with whether or not a country produces players dominating the sport at the highest levels. Have you ever been down to Indian Wells to watch the pro tournament there? The interest in the game has likely never been higher. For that matter, try and book a court at the Olympic Club on the weekend. ;)

From the end of WWII into the 1970's, the U.S., Australia and, to a lesser extent, England dominated competitive tennis. For a variety of reasons, that has changed, as things often do. But don't forget that Sampras, Agassi, Courier & Chang pretty much dominated men's tennis in the 1990's, well after the tennis boom of the 1970's. If there was ever a "golden age" of American tennis in our lifetimes, that was it.


And, speaking of change, I would argue that tennis, as a sport, has changed far more than golf over the past 30-40 years.


DT   
 
« Last Edit: January 09, 2022, 12:04:53 PM by David_Tepper »

Gib_Papazian

Re: USGA Women's Open to new venues
« Reply #48 on: January 09, 2022, 12:11:09 PM »

David,

The beautiful Aussie in the bathtub of Titleists understood marketing - and clearly was loyal to our Tour. I think that poster was on more walls back then than the famous Farrah Fawcett print. 

Instead of girl's golf growing in America, the LPGA has essentially become a globetrotting world tour. In the current state of their organization, I don't think the venue moves the needle enough to throw a victory parade - and that includes Augusta.

Okay, good for the world game, but I do not see women players elevating to household names - which is all about marketing, which is all about sponsorships, which ties into advertising that shovels coal into the box that moves the train.

The US Women's Open at Olympic looked to be a financial failure, relative to its potential.

And the other point Jan was making is use of pure sex appeal.

That is one thing women's tennis has in spades . . . . .

Because rank & file women - as a rule, despite controlling some insane amount of discretionary income in America - do not support women's sports like men.

I really like watching NCAA girls basketball out there fighting for their school because it is such an emotional game - and the alumni & parents support it like the students.

(Slight vector, how USC does not dominate BB drives me batshit.)

By contrast The WNBA is NEVER, EVER, EVER going to be anything but an irrelevant footnote. Nobody cares in the national sports press but writers trying to virtue signal for whatever reason.


Some of that is a complete lack of sex appeal and CHARMING THE CROWD . . . . . that is part of the gig.

If the LPGA wants to boost to the next level in America, a good starting point (follow the money) would be less androgynous players, frumping and scowling their way down the fairway - and more pizazz.

It can be done, relatively unknown Megha Ganne was already a rock star, BEFORE the final round!

And if Lexi (gawd, I just love her whole chi) had just hit one more club on #17 and closed out the deal, you could have heard the cheers at Tour headquarters.

But Yuka Sasso? C'mon, polite applause - but the people's choice never wins at our home track (*one of yours,* actually).

If Megha had somehow won, the second she turned professional, it would be like the 2nd coming of a female Tiger.

Because no American girl dreams of growing up to be humorless, androgynous Yuka Sasso. That is not the way to lure American girls into the fold.

How come everybody knows who Grace Park is? Even now? If you are going to have a bunch of foreign players, stylish and talented is a good start. Or at least irresistibly charming like Inbee Park.


You gotta have a hook! Even those two sisters from Thailand - whose last name are random consonants I cannot spell - bring a compelling story, but it is not enough to get viewers to tune in, especially with so much entertainment competition.

How come Nancy Lopez was on THE COVER of S.I. and every sports page in America? Watching a Juli Inkster chase down a leaderboard with a swashbuckling flamethrower made fabulous theater. 

JoAnne Gunderson made Babe Zaharias look like a bikini model, but you didn't turn the channel when she was storming down the fairway, now did you? So it is also about personality . . . . . . the ability of the hoi polloi to connect on some visceral level.


Pretending it should only be about the "quality of golf" (sniffs the tight-asses who cannot admit the role of sex appeal or personality) is just more pretending, because the Senior Tour men are still WAAAY better than the top LPGA players.

We gotta do better!


As far as Scotland is concerned, I have no answers. Golf is genetically encoded in the culture, families play together in the afternoon - and there is no shortage of wildly attractive, hot shit players north of the Anglo-Scottish DMZ. Totally counterintuitive . . . . . maybe they are hiding all their golfing Susan Boyles up there.


You live up there part time, why? 


« Last Edit: January 12, 2022, 04:56:06 AM by Gib Papazian »

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USGA Women's Open to new venues
« Reply #49 on: January 09, 2022, 01:04:10 PM »
Gib -

Jan Stephenson? Joanne Gunderson? Nancy Lopez? We are well into the 21st century. You are too young to be living so far in the past! ;)

I think you are underestimating the positive impact the success of Asian golfers has had on young golfers in the U.S., especially young Asian-Americans. The emergence of Danielle Kang, Meghan Khang, Lucy Li, Yeolhimi Noh, Collin Morikawa, Justin Suh, Isaiah Salinda, etc. here in recent year is no coincidence.


I suspect the LPGA and the women's game in general is in far better health than you appreciate. The two biggest women's golf events in the U.S. have just received a sizeable boost in funding by corporate sponsors. I can't think of a more positive sign.

DT