[Niall C]

If you are going to consider the Postage Stamp as a template I’d have thought the first thing you’d want to do is identify its characteristics. Some of the photos posted seem to bear no relation to the Postage Stamp that I can see.


The key points IMO are;


- the length (100 yards plus)
- slightly elevated tee
- the smallness of the green (c.3,000 sqft) plus its relative flatness
- it’s shape (long and thin at c.90 feet long and c.43 feet wide at front and 30 feet wide at back)
- orientation (approached head on)
- any miss is likely to be severally punished with a very difficult recovery shot. However I’d suggest you are unlikely to lose your ball unless you are really wild
- and then of course there is the general landscape with the mound on the left and the steep fall-off back and right. That’s what helps make it so punishing if you miss.


It’s probably that last point that makes it harder to replicate than say some other templates where the landforms are quite as extreme. The closest I’ve seen of it being replicated is the 9^th at Silloth although the mound on the left is more a bank and the drop of on the right while pronounced isn’t quite as severe as the “original”. The green is also slightly bigger (c.4,000 sqft).


Interestingly Willie Fernie didn’t design the Postage Stamp until 1910 and then it was James Braid who put the bunker in at the bottom of the mound on the left ahead of the 1923 Open and that really made the hole what it is today.


The site of the current 9^th green at Silloth was one of the original green sites for the original course in 1892 although the tee shot was longer and played over the ridge to a blind green. Willie Park Jnr did some design work there sometime between 1898 and 1902 and is credited with creating a hole playing from the back of the current tee to the site of the present green. There were also some other changes in 1908 and it’s not certain what happened when.


However I have a report of Fernie doing work at Silloth in 1912 and that isn’t in the Silloth history book. So did Fernie tweak the hole at Silloth in 1912 to resemble the Postage Stamp or was it already like that and he borrowed the idea for the hole at Troon ?
 
Niall

[Gib_Papazian]

I'm still not sure I really understand the strict definition of what can be identified as a "Postage Stamp" vs. a short par-3, surrounded by nasty bunkers or ugly trouble. Obviously, I've played the original, but it does not strike me as a lot strategically different than - for instance - #17 at PGA West Stadium, except with water.


Doth the perilous #13 at Spanish Bay count as a Postage Stamp? Is #7 at Pebble a Postage Stamp? The Short at NGLA has a reasonably expansive putting surface (surrounded by bunkers), but it is contoured in such a way to essentially present several different discrete small targets.


#10 at Pine Valley a Postage Stamp? 1/2 of Bandon Preserve might fall into that category - or TD's #14 at Pac Dunes?  #15 at Spyglass? #15 at CPC? #15 at Olympic Lake?


Depending on the tee marker you select, even #2 at Trails seems quite similar . . . . . .


Okay, so what is the strict definition, because I still really have no idea. Little Tillie at SFGC? 

[Rory Connaughton]

17 at Enniscrone - narrow, half as wide as deep, perlilous fall offs right and left. Really need to be playing into the wind or to have mastery of the very short knockdown to have a chance at 3.

[Tom_Doak]

I'm still not sure I really understand the strict definition of what can be identified as a "Postage Stamp" vs. a short par-3, surrounded by nasty bunkers or ugly trouble. Obviously, I've played the original, but it does not strike me as a lot strategically different than - for instance - #17 at PGA West Stadium, except with water.

Doth the perilous #13 at Spanish Bay count as a Postage Stamp? Is #7 at Pebble a Postage Stamp? The Short at NGLA has a reasonably expansive putting surface (surrounded by bunkers), but it is contoured in such a way to essentially present several different discrete small targets.

Gib:


You are right that a par-3 with a small green surrounded by trouble is common, and it's hard to separate out the features that would entitle it to be called a version of the hole at Troon.


For me the biggest feature is that it's not just a very small green, but a VERY narrow one.  Also, when I said "Postage Stamp" to Jack Nicklaus at Sebonack, the other thing that he said right away was that the green falls away from the tee a bit, so it's extra hard to hold.  I had not remembered that feature of it [and actually I haven't been back to Troon since to double-check it], but Jack thought it was important so we did the same thing for the 12th at Sebonack.


I do remember that when they built Spanish Bay, Bobby Jones referred to the Postage Stamp in discussing the 13th hole there, but I think he had a different cutesy name for it.

[Thomas Dai]

17 at Enniscrone - narrow, half as wide as deep, perlilous fall offs right and left. Really need to be playing into the wind or to have mastery of the very short knockdown to have a chance at 3.

Pure evil downwind which is I believe the prevailing wind.
Saunton East has 2 very short by modern standards par-3’s, the famous ‘Tidler’ 4th although I reckon the near equally short 13th is quite a bit more challenging in the usually prevailing wind.
And then there’s the 8th on The Channel course at Burnham & Berrow … drum roll time … no bunkers and a tiny, severely sloped putting surface. To paraphrase what Lyn Shackelford said after playing the hole, “Every course should have a hole like it”
Atb

[Anthony Gray]

I'm still not sure I really understand the strict definition of what can be identified as a "Postage Stamp" vs. a short par-3, surrounded by nasty bunkers or ugly trouble. Obviously, I've played the original, but it does not strike me as a lot strategically different than - for instance - #17 at PGA West Stadium, except with water.

Doth the perilous #13 at Spanish Bay count as a Postage Stamp? Is #7 at Pebble a Postage Stamp? The Short at NGLA has a reasonably expansive putting surface (surrounded by bunkers), but it is contoured in such a way to essentially present several different discrete small targets.

Gib:


You are right that a par-3 with a small green surrounded by trouble is common, and it's hard to separate out the features that would entitle it to be called a version of the hole at Troon.


For me the biggest feature is that it's not just a very small green, but a VERY narrow one.  Also, when I said "Postage Stamp" to Jack Nicklaus at Sebonack, the other thing that he said right away was that the green falls away from the tee a bit, so it's extra hard to hold.  I had not remembered that feature of it [and actually I haven't been back to Troon since to double-check it], but Jack thought it was important so we did the same thing for the 12th at Sebonack.


I do remember that when they built Spanish Bay, Bobby Jones referred to the Postage Stamp in discussing the 13th hole there, but I think he had a different cutesy name for it.

 The left side has large mound. And the hole is much more than the traps. The entire hole goes left to right. Much like a reverse Redan. It flow right. The ball that hits the green can end up 10 feet below the hole with a chip on the next shot. Even without the bunkers it’s strategic. Long is the same. If the bank has shorter grass the ball can be played of the bank. It a par three that has elevation difference for the second shot. I think the bunkers may be a better miss than long or if the ball misses the bunker. When the ball is rolling you may rout fit it to get in a bunker. The original just may be over bunkered. It’s a good hole to put on the side of a hill. Play it ten times and you may never reproduce a shot.

[Anthony Gray]

If you are going to consider the Postage Stamp as a template I’d have thought the first thing you’d want to do is identify its characteristics. Some of the photos posted seem to bear no relation to the Postage Stamp that I can see.


The key points IMO are;


- the length (100 yards plus)
- slightly elevated tee
- the smallness of the green (c.3,000 sqft) plus its relative flatness
- it’s shape (long and thin at c.90 feet long and c.43 feet wide at front and 30 feet wide at back)
- orientation (approached head on)
- any miss is likely to be severally punished with a very difficult recovery shot. However I’d suggest you are unlikely to lose your ball unless you are really wild
- and then of course there is the general landscape with the mound on the left and the steep fall-off back and right. That’s what helps make it so punishing if you miss.


It’s probably that last point that makes it harder to replicate than say some other templates where the landforms are quite as extreme. The closest I’ve seen of it being replicated is the 9^th at Silloth although the mound on the left is more a bank and the drop of on the right while pronounced isn’t quite as severe as the “original”. The green is also slightly bigger (c.4,000 sqft).


Interestingly Willie Fernie didn’t design the Postage Stamp until 1910 and then it was James Braid who put the bunker in at the bottom of the mound on the left ahead of the 1923 Open and that really made the hole what it is today.


The site of the current 9^th green at Silloth was one of the original green sites for the original course in 1892 although the tee shot was longer and played over the ridge to a blind green. Willie Park Jnr did some design work there sometime between 1898 and 1902 and is credited with creating a hole playing from the back of the current tee to the site of the present green. There were also some other changes in 1908 and it’s not certain what happened when.


However I have a report of Fernie doing work at Silloth in 1912 and that isn’t in the Silloth history book. So did Fernie tweak the hole at Silloth in 1912 to resemble the Postage Stamp or was it already like that and he borrowed the idea for the hole at Troon ?
 
Niall

 Excellent post

[Mark Molyneux]

Stephen Kay produced, or better to say "reproduced" the Postage Stamp from Royal Troon at McCullough's Emerald Links in Egg Harbor Township in South Jersey. Troon's #8 became McCullough's #16. I think it was Tom Doak, who indicated that such a small green surface might be difficult to maintain. It is. At McCullough's, you might get a wonderful education in golf course architecture (Biarritz. 14th from St. Andrews, Waterville #11, even Mackenzie's theoretical hole from the magazine competition BUT you may be disappointed by the bare spots on the green at their version of Postage Stamp.

[Bill Gayne]

The hole that most and best resembled the postage stamp to me was a hole on the Ballyneal mulligan course. Going from memory and the Ballyneal website the third hole and not sure if it was designed with the postage stamp in mind but that's what I thought of after playing the hole.

There are a couple of holes on the Mulligan you could be thinking of, but definitely not the 3rd.  I'd say the 9th hole is probably the most like the Postage Stamp.

Tom, it's been driving me crazy all day that I can't get the hole number figured out in my own head but it probably was the ninth hole.


Jordan, thanks for bringing back some great memories. What a fun trip that was!. Hope all is well with you.

Sometime in the future need to revive the Shivas "ass pic" thread.

[Tom_Doak]

Stephen Kay produced, or better to say "reproduced" the Postage Stamp from Royal Troon at McCullough's Emerald Links in Egg Harbor Township in South Jersey. Troon's #8 became McCullough's #16. I think it was Tom Doak, who indicated that such a small green surface might be difficult to maintain. It is. At McCullough's, you might get a wonderful education in golf course architecture (Biarritz. 14th from St. Andrews, Waterville #11, even Mackenzie's theoretical hole from the magazine competition BUT you may be disappointed by the bare spots on the green at their version of Postage Stamp.

This post made me remember that we built a "mirror image" version of the Postage Stamp for the 11th hole at NLE Charlotte Golf Links.  It wasn't as severe off to the sides, though, as it was supposed to be a busy public course.

[Tom_Doak]

 The left side has large mound. And the hole is much more than the traps. The entire hole goes left to right. Much like a reverse Redan. It flow right. The ball that hits the green can end up 10 feet below the hole with a chip on the next shot. Even without the bunkers it’s strategic. Long is the same. If the bank has shorter grass the ball can be played of the bank. It a par three that has elevation difference for the second shot. I think the bunkers may be a better miss than long or if the ball misses the bunker. When the ball is rolling you may rout fit it to get in a bunker. The original just may be over bunkered. It’s a good hole to put on the side of a hill. Play it ten times and you may never reproduce a shot.

Anthony:  To me, the mound to the left has very little to do with the hole, other than making the bunkers to the left smaller and nasty because you're more likely to have a restricted backswing.  [I mean, it's distinctive looking, but it seldom comes into play.]  As for the bunkering, our client at Sebonack agreed with you, he wanted less sand and more run-off to deep depressions at the right, back and back left.

[Pete Lavallee]

My wife and I attended the 1989 British Open at Troon. On Sunday we went out early and got the prime viewing spot, right behind the 8th tee in the middle. If memory serves me correctly the hole was playing 125 yards into the wind; the club of choice was an 8 iron, how times have changed! Low ball hitters had a distinct advantage. The most impressive shot that day was from Edwardo Romero who hit a low bullet, probably the lowest shot of the day that we saw.


Greg Norman had birdied the first 6 holes and parred 7. On the 8th he hit a towering shot that seemed to be a slight pull. He ended up in the left green side bunker and failed to get up and down for his only bogey of the day. Had he parred the hole he would possibly have won by a shot and not have to be in the 3 man 4 hole playoff.

[Matt MacIver]

Stephen Kay produced, or better to say "reproduced" the Postage Stamp from Royal Troon at McCullough's Emerald Links in Egg Harbor Township in South Jersey. Troon's #8 became McCullough's #16. I think it was Tom Doak, who indicated that such a small green surface might be difficult to maintain. It is. At McCullough's, you might get a wonderful education in golf course architecture (Biarritz. 14th from St. Andrews, Waterville #11, even Mackenzie's theoretical hole from the magazine competition BUT you may be disappointed by the bare spots on the green at their version of Postage Stamp.

This post made me remember that we built a "mirror image" version of the Postage Stamp for the 11th hole at NLE Charlotte Golf Links.  It wasn't as severe off to the sides, though, as it was supposed to be a busy public course.

I played CLT GL 25-30 times and I can’t say it ever reminded me of PS given what you said, as well as I think the green was shorter and wider than PS.

[Anthony Gray]

 The left side has large mound. And the hole is much more than the traps. The entire hole goes left to right. Much like a reverse Redan. It flow right. The ball that hits the green can end up 10 feet below the hole with a chip on the next shot. Even without the bunkers it’s strategic. Long is the same. If the bank has shorter grass the ball can be played of the bank. It a par three that has elevation difference for the second shot. I think the bunkers may be a better miss than long or if the ball misses the bunker. When the ball is rolling you may rout fit it to get in a bunker. The original just may be over bunkered. It’s a good hole to put on the side of a hill. Play it ten times and you may never reproduce a shot.

Anthony:  To me, the mound to the left has very little to do with the hole, other than making the bunkers to the left smaller and nasty because you're more likely to have a restricted backswing.  [I mean, it's distinctive looking, but it seldom comes into play.]  As for the bunkering, our client at Sebonack agreed with you, he wanted less sand and more run-off to deep depressions at the right, back and back left.

 I would like to see the hill with shorter grass that would not stop the ball from bouncing right. If the ball stays up there it’s impossible. I doubt a golfer would play the ball off the hill but it would not be an impossible recovery. It’s a good hole for a green cut into a hill halfway up. It just seems there would be more occasions where it could be done including the hill.

[Mike Baillie]

Wooden Sticks, in Uxbridge north east of Toronto, has a Postage Stamp template.  It is 11A which they play most of the time, at times 11B is played which is a template or at least inspired by The Rabbit #17 at Troon.

The course is called Wooden Sticks because some of the owners are former NHL players.  Other templates include:
- on the front: 12 and 13 from Augusta          also a Church Pews bunker on another hole
- on the back: 1, 17, 18 from the Old Course, 6 or Hogan's Alley at Carnoustie, 17 at Sawgrass
- on both: some holes with a Pine Valley look given the sand base the course has.  Most courses in the area clay based.

While most enjoy the templates many like some of the unique holes better including two solid short par 4s which are immediately before and after the 2 Masters holes.

[Tim_Weiman]

Assuming I recall it correctly, the Lakewood Shores Resort in Oscoda, MI has a pretty good Postage Stamp on a course we rarely if ever talk about.

[Sean_A]

Stephen Kay produced, or better to say "reproduced" the Postage Stamp from Royal Troon at McCullough's Emerald Links in Egg Harbor Township in South Jersey. Troon's #8 became McCullough's #16. I think it was Tom Doak, who indicated that such a small green surface might be difficult to maintain. It is. At McCullough's, you might get a wonderful education in golf course architecture (Biarritz. 14th from St. Andrews, Waterville #11, even Mackenzie's theoretical hole from the magazine competition BUT you may be disappointed by the bare spots on the green at their version of Postage Stamp.

Maybe a spare is in order as is the case at Troon.

Other than a longish, narrow green, I think the trouble on one side needs to be heightened, but not look so. Missing left at Troon is generally far worse than right. But the right side miss looks the worse side to miss.

Ciao

[Sean_A]

 The left side has large mound. And the hole is much more than the traps. The entire hole goes left to right. Much like a reverse Redan. It flow right. The ball that hits the green can end up 10 feet below the hole with a chip on the next shot. Even without the bunkers it’s strategic. Long is the same. If the bank has shorter grass the ball can be played of the bank. It a par three that has elevation difference for the second shot. I think the bunkers may be a better miss than long or if the ball misses the bunker. When the ball is rolling you may rout fit it to get in a bunker. The original just may be over bunkered. It’s a good hole to put on the side of a hill. Play it ten times and you may never reproduce a shot.

Anthony:  To me, the mound to the left has very little to do with the hole, other than making the bunkers to the left smaller and nasty because you're more likely to have a restricted backswing.  [I mean, it's distinctive looking, but it seldom comes into play.]  As for the bunkering, our client at Sebonack agreed with you, he wanted less sand and more run-off to deep depressions at the right, back and back left.
[/quote
 

When I have been at Troon the mound played a very significant part. Getting hung up on deep rough and having to hack out downhill to a narrow green was no place to be.

Ciao

[Niall C]

When I have been at Troon the mound played a very significant part. Getting hung up on deep rough and having to hack out downhill to a narrow green was no place to be.

Ciao

That bunker is so narrow that if you end up in there you are sometimes lucky to have a shot out and even that can be to go sideways or backwards so the mound is definitely in play. For the average golfer and even the better than average golfer, just getting the ball on to the green with your second can be a real challenge if you miss on either side with your tee-shot. That I think is the real essence of the hole and that is the the degree of difficulty for most recovery shots.


Niall 

[Anthony Gray]

When I have been at Troon the mound played a very significant part. Getting hung up on deep rough and having to hack out downhill to a narrow green was no place to be.

Ciao

That bunker is so narrow that if you end up in there you are sometimes lucky to have a shot out and even that can be to go sideways or backwards so the mound is definitely in play. For the average golfer and even the better than average golfer, just getting the ball on to the green with your second can be a real challenge if you miss on either side with your tee-shot. That I think is the real essence of the hole and that is the the degree of difficulty for most recovery shots.


Niall

 I agree Niall



 I would almost not like to see that bunker there. Allows for a short left miss. Or make it bigger. It’s very penal. Or maybe cut the grass on the hill so you can play the bunker shot off the hill and watch it roll.


 I think the hole would be better if the hill was playable.


 

[Rick Sides]

Would #11 at Hidden Creek?

[John_Cullum]

[Kalen Braley]

[Tom_Doak]

This post made me remember that we built a "mirror image" version of the Postage Stamp for the 11th hole at NLE Charlotte Golf Links.  It wasn't as severe off to the sides, though, as it was supposed to be a busy public course.

I played CLT GL 25-30 times and I can’t say it ever reminded me of PS given what you said, as well as I think the green was shorter and wider than PS.

I'm sure the green was different, since (a) we were building for a busy public course, and (b) that was 1992, and I couldn't just pull up the dimensions of the real one on Google Earth.  But more (a).  But that IS where the idea for the hole was born.  Likewise, the 17th was a poor version of the 8th at Muirfield !

[Gib_Papazian]

TD,


I'm wondering if a narrow green and shorty par-3 qualifies #12 at Augusta as a Postage Stamp.


But it seems the angle of the putting surface orientation to the tee has quite a bit to do with the challenge.


After coming in 2 under par in a qualifier and making having to roll in a snake for a tidy quintuple bogey, #13 at SB now gets played as a par 3.5. In other words, I aim for the front left because I carry scar tissue - and the pin is always back right for some reason.


I'll take a 3-jack bogey over another Mr. Creosotic embarrassment - while my playing partners tap their foot and the group ahead is already halfway to the green on #14.  Give it whatever cutesy-patootsie name you want, I'm terrified of it - especially in the wind.


Thinking about it, #12 at Augusta seem perpendicular if anything.


I find it amusing that Jack wanted the putting surface tilted slightly away at Sebonack. One of my major gripes with Nicklaus courses  (having played 28 of them) is what seems a repetitious string of elevated green complexes, surrounded by death bunkers, offering on a narrow ribbon of cement as the target.


Which might be why the Postage Stamp has not become a "template."


Except, maybe it has . . . . . and we are just not grokking how many of them are out there.




P.S. Standing on the Postage Stamp at Troon last time, I was thinking of being an Armenian Gene Sarazen, but it was not to be. However, I beat Rory's train wreck by one.  Cold comfort in a 40 knot wind.   
   

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