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Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
14 at Dormie
« on: December 29, 2021, 10:52:50 AM »
I think most of us like a short par four. The risk reward of those holes can make them exciting. Ten at Riviera is thrilling for both the tour pro and novice. I love the 17th hole at Pine Valley. The tee shot is not exacting but the second shot is short, and I expect to get it close, but the green doesn’t always allow it. This is similar to 14 at Dormie. Dormie has three good short fours. Three has one of the most beguiling greens on the course and fifteen one of the most demanding tee shots.
Fourteen is a mere 300 yards long up a steep incline. It is a seductive wench. The fairway is miles wide and cants left to right. From the tee the hole looks pretty boring. The fun starts with the second shot. The tee shot, however, needs to be hit to the left side of the fairway. Pull it a bit and you are in the woods on pine straw. Let it leak and you must hit it over a stinker of a bunker. it is the only bunker on the hole.


The shot from the right side looks easy enough but distance control is essential. From the right side you don’t get a good look at the green’s surface.

The green is tiny and slopes more dramatically from left to right and front to back than it appears from the fairway. A front left pin is relatively benign and if that is the only pin you see you wonder why C&C would design such a nothing hole. Put the pin in the back half of the green or back right and the second shot is as exacting as any 60-yard shot you will ever play especially when the ground is firm.

I have had many “perfect” shots run off the back or right side of the green. miss right and the ball will roll some twenty or thirty yards. I have putted the ball off the green! Now you have excitement. I have walked away with six and didn’t feel as though I hit very poor shots. It is one of the few 300-yard holes where four is a decent score.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2021, 02:41:53 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Anthony Gray

Re: 14 at Dormie
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2021, 12:21:19 PM »



 Slope Favors a left to right hitter but if the ball runs out they will have to go over the bunker. It is nice design Tommy.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 14 at Dormie
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2021, 02:39:13 PM »
They should plant a tall tree on the right side of the hole, in the drive zone. One greenside bunker is not enough to protect a hole with the back right side of an angled green.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Jay Mickle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 14 at Dormie
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2021, 03:01:32 PM »
They should plant a tall tree on the right side of the hole, in the drive zone. One greenside bunker is not enough to protect a hole with the back right side of an angled green.


Exactly what I was going to suggest ;D
@MickleStix on Instagram
MickleStix.com

Peter Pallotta

Re: 14 at Dormie
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2021, 03:42:19 PM »
1. Beguiling is such a good word -- and for me the best quality a golf hole can have.
2. The 14th seems a marvellous golf hole; with different 'light' and trees, it fits right in with a lovely English inland course that Sean A might profile



Wade Whitehead

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 14 at Dormie
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2021, 04:35:15 PM »
Much of the genius of the hole is how it fits into the flow of the golf course.

The massive tenth requires three excellent shots just to reach the green.  On the tiny twelfth, even a well-placed shot must deal with a very tricky putting surface.  Then, the thirteenth hole, a true par 4.5, goads players into swinging out of their shoes.

Many who arrive on the 14th tee, having just wasted a few shots, are less willing to play for a four...and that's when the hole bites the hardest.

14 is short but it isn't the place to make up shots, which is why its placement in the routing is so brilliant.

GCAers often say that the mark of a great course is wanting to go straight from 18 green to the first tee.  On #14 at Dormie, I always want to run straight back to the tee to play the hole again.

WW
« Last Edit: December 29, 2021, 04:56:02 PM by Wade Whitehead »

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 14 at Dormie
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2021, 04:38:26 PM »
I like this hole, but I thought it was not well liked here? That's how previous discussions went, IIRC. Maybe I don't "RC" though.

This is one of the holes where, unless you're really, really bad with a 40-60 yard shot (and by "bad" I don't just mean you don't hit it to 5' every time, more like you blade or chunk 2 out of 3 because you've not spent 15 minutes figuring out how to hit that kind of shot), the best play is generally to hit a driver and then wedge/pitch/chip it on from there.

It's a hole where far too many people, to their detriment, will say "lay back to leave a full wedge in."
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 14 at Dormie
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2021, 05:12:45 PM »
Why does the hole need to be "protected"? Take it for what it is and enjoy it. Are you suggesting that a tree be planted on any hole which some might feel needs protection?  C & C created 2 absolutely wonderful short par 4s at Sand Hills without a tree in sight so why would you want one here?  In fact, at SH there is the possibility of driving the green, especially on number 8 so why would you want to put in a tree at 14 at Dormie?  Fly the bunker at #7 at Ballyneal and you can get really close to the green.  Again, why do you need a vertical obstacle at Dormie? Look at the torment that you suffer at #14 at Bandon Trails without an obstacle in the driving zone. Now that I think of it I can see some similarity with #14 at Bandon Trails so far as how you should play the hole - it is a little longer but downhill and the green complex is where the challenge is. 

Tal Oz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 14 at Dormie
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2021, 05:17:58 PM »
The No Laying Up guys recently posted a short video about Dormie. That back right pin looks extra spicy!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dm3uVyG1mg @ 2:45

Jay Mickle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 14 at Dormie
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2021, 07:26:46 PM »
Why does the hole need to be "protected"? Take it for what it is and enjoy it. Are you suggesting that a tree be planted on any hole which some might feel needs protection?  C & C created 2 absolutely wonderful short par 4s at Sand Hills without a tree in sight so why would you want one here?  In fact, at SH there is the possibility of driving the green, especially on number 8 so why would you want to put in a tree at 14 at Dormie?  Fly the bunker at #7 at Ballyneal and you can get really close to the green.  Again, why do you need a vertical obstacle at Dormie? Look at the torment that you suffer at #14 at Bandon Trails without an obstacle in the driving zone. Now that I think of it I can see some similarity with #14 at Bandon Trails so far as how you should play the hole - it is a little longer but downhill and the green complex is where the challenge is.


The comment was in jest and a poke at the positive comments about "The Tree" that sits in front of the diagonal green with fronting bunker at Mid Pines.
@MickleStix on Instagram
MickleStix.com

Anthony Gray

Re: 14 at Dormie
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2021, 07:50:55 PM »
They should plant a tall tree on the right side of the hole, in the drive zone. One greenside bunker is not enough to protect a hole with the back right side of an angled green.


 Is this humorous? 😉

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 14 at Dormie
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2021, 08:43:50 PM »
Jay and I get it. If it offends, forgive me.


This particular hole is so damned good, and until the thread popped up, I had forgotten the similarities between it and the 4th at Mid Pines.


I agree with Erie Erik B., and say, bang away, then play a pitch to the left front and let it release. The lay back is not the play back here. The green has similarities in its trickery, to the 10th at Riviera. This one is much more fair, in my estimation. I watch tour pros unable to hit and hold a green, and I ask myself, is that a good putting surface? This one can be held with ease, as long as you don't bite off too much.


I've only played Dormie in sh!t weather, and by that, I mean full-on snow and the like. I'd love to see it in the summer, firm and fast. I fell in love with Dormie when I saw her the first time, and I've never let go. One more reason I tell my wife that the only southern place I'd consider for retirement, is the sandhills.


To be able to play Southern Pines, Mid Pines, Dormie, Tobacco Road, with frequency...what more can a golf nut desire?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Jay Mickle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 14 at Dormie
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2021, 07:56:30 AM »
They should plant a tall tree on the right side of the hole, in the drive zone. One greenside bunker is not enough to protect a hole with the back right side of an angled green.
Is this humorous? 😉


Yes!
@MickleStix on Instagram
MickleStix.com

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 14 at Dormie
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2021, 01:03:32 PM »
Here’s a decade old thread on the same hole.. wonder if views will have changed: https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=50104

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 14 at Dormie
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2021, 01:14:04 PM »
Here’s a decade old thread on the same hole.. wonder if views will have changed: https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=50104
Has yours?
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 14 at Dormie
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2021, 01:34:20 PM »
Here’s a decade old thread on the same hole.. wonder if views will have changed: https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=50104
Has yours?


I haven't been to Dormie since I started the other thread

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 14 at Dormie
« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2021, 01:59:46 PM »
Mark, reading your initial post on 14, you miss that the green actually runs front to back. It is ne of those holes that after a few plays reveals itself more. The drive is easy to a wide fairway. I have been all over that fairway and can't decide from where I want to come in from. I lean toward coming in from the left side of the fairway but when the pin is back right getting close is very difficult because anything even a little long runs down the hill.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Roman Schwarz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 14 at Dormie
« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2021, 04:42:53 PM »
Is it a bad hole or a great hole?  I’ll say neither.


As with most severe greens, whether the hole gets silly is in the hands of the club, not the designer.  As long as the green isn’t running too fast (it never has that I’ve seen), I don’t buy grumbles from low handicappers that can’t give their eagle putt a good run without worrying about rolling off the back.  Like any other “not easy” hole, make your risk/reward calculation and get on with it.


Why don’t I think it’s a great hole?  Think of it from the perspective of everyone that doesn’t have 300 yards in their quiver.  296 is the yardage from the 6500 tee.  It’s 283 from the 5900’s.  Most people playing the appropriate tee there can not get it green high from the tee.  I also don’t know any high or even mid handicappers that “lay up to a yardage” rather than get as close as you can.  For that vast swath of people, the tee shot almost doesn’t matter at all (beyond the obvious “don’t hit it in the woods”).  The bunker isn’t in play and the right side of the green is not in play.  If you’re anywhere in the fairway and short of the bunker, it’s an interesting shot to a blind surface, but that shot is the same almost no matter what you did off the tee.  A mid iron leaves a wedge or short iron and driver leaves maybe a 50 yard pitch.  Is that shot THAT different for anyone happy to walk away with par?  From that position, the most diabolical part of the hole (beyond the bunker and missed right) isn’t in play unless you hit a horrible 2nd or putt off the green.


That 2nd shot and anything around the green is super interesting, but I want more intrigue on the tee for a great 2 shot hole.


That said, I think there are options to elevate it easily.


1) Move the tees up a bit.  It doesn’t seem like low handicappers would be affected much strategy or skill wise just having to hit 3w instead of driver.
2) If the bunker was closer to the tee and away from the green.  It would add some visual trickery, a la the Cleopatra hole at Jasper, though the shot value is different.  That would make more people make more decisions off the tee, a hard slope where the bunker is now would probably shoot a drive down to the right, and being in that bunker would be even more of a penalty.  Being in the woods to the left would be worse because the back of the current bunker functions as a nice backstop coming down the hill.  The bunker would not be in play on the 2nd shot approach after laying up, for better or worse....probably worse.  I don’t like the idea of adding another hazard somewhere.  The beauty of the hole is already the simplicity.
3) This my favorite.  Add a tee down to the right and occasionally play it as a long par 3 like the approach at the Road Hole, just with a mirrored angle.  If you still want it to be par 71 on that day, play #13 way back and put the pin in an evil spot like back left on the little mound.


Compared to other short 2-shot Coore/Crenshaw holes, it falls short.  The waste area is very much in play for a lot of players at the 3rd hole, and that green is great.  The angle at Wekopa’s 10th (or 2nd for that matter) makes pulling driver more treacherous and the downhill nature makes the green more reachable for more players.  Hidden Creek’s 8th has the bunker short much like I suggested above.


Of all the par 4’s on the course, the only one I don’t like better is #11.  All of the others have as good, if not better, greens and all ask more questions off the tee to more golfers.  In any other county it would be a standout hole, but it’s in a tough neighborhood. 

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 14 at Dormie
« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2022, 08:37:03 AM »
RS...that's a great take. I was captivated from start to finish. Head over to my concurrent thread and offer a similar take on which hole on which great course one of the greats would re-do. I'll be waiting.


Bringing the bunker away from the green sounds very interesting. I'm curious what the practicing architects would say about that.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 14 at Dormie
« Reply #19 on: January 01, 2022, 10:47:39 AM »
Is it a bad hole or a great hole?  I’ll say neither.

That 2nd shot and anything around the green is super interesting, but I want more intrigue on the tee for a great 2 shot hole.



I'm not quite sure what intrigue means in this context. For me, anything to the right sets up a blind shot. Getting on the green is easy but getting close to the hole seems intriguing.


Moving the bunker away from the green might make the drive more interesting but it changes the second shot immensely. I think what a I like about the hole is its simplicity. It would be easy to trick up the hole. C&C just put in a bunker and leveled off an area and threw grass seed down.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 14 at Dormie
« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2022, 11:55:39 AM »
I have wondered if they could have narrowed the fairway by moving in the waste area on the right. It would make the tee ball more exacting. But then I thought it wouldn't affect me as much as my 18 handicap friend, who doesn't need anymore punishment.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Paul Elam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 14 at Dormie
« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2022, 01:18:51 PM »
I really enjoy the 14th hole at Dormie, and don't think it needs any protection with a tree or waste area.  It's a perfect relief at that point in the round.  It's a par 3 1/2 ish hole after a really tough stretch of par 4s and par 5s, and a visual treat.

Dormie's first six are a fairly gentle open, but the next 7 holes contain four of the six hardest holes on the course per the scorecard. 

7th   only 15 handicap but longest par 3
8th    1 Handicap 488 yard Par 4
10th  4 Handicap 653 yard par 5
11th  6 Handicap 423 yard par 4
13th  2 Handicap 492 yard par 4

While C & C sprinkle in a couple of short par 3s during this stretch, the appearance of a short, "gettable", par 4 provides a welcome respite at a time when the average golfer really needs it and and an opportunity for better golfer to pick up that half stroke he may have lost on the par 4 1/2 holes #8 or #13. 

Visually, from the tee it looks like the bunker is more in the fairway, probably due to its size, but once the golfer approaches they see it is indeed green side.  It only takes a round to understand this, but its a nice visual to go along with the peek-a-boo 15th green, etc. 

Fun hole at a perfect time in the round...


Roman Schwarz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 14 at Dormie
« Reply #22 on: January 01, 2022, 02:39:29 PM »
I really enjoy the 14th hole at Dormie, and don't think it needs any protection with a tree or waste area.  It's a perfect relief at that point in the round.  It's a par 3 1/2 ish hole after a really tough stretch of par 4s and par 5s, and a visual treat.

Dormie's first six are a fairly gentle open, but the next 7 holes contain four of the six hardest holes on the course per the scorecard. 

7th   only 15 handicap but longest par 3
8th    1 Handicap 488 yard Par 4
10th  4 Handicap 653 yard par 5
11th  6 Handicap 423 yard par 4
13th  2 Handicap 492 yard par 4

While C & C sprinkle in a couple of short par 3s during this stretch, the appearance of a short, "gettable", par 4 provides a welcome respite at a time when the average golfer really needs it and and an opportunity for better golfer to pick up that half stroke he may have lost on the par 4 1/2 holes #8 or #13. 

Visually, from the tee it looks like the bunker is more in the fairway, probably due to its size, but once the golfer approaches they see it is indeed green side.  It only takes a round to understand this, but its a nice visual to go along with the peek-a-boo 15th green, etc. 

Fun hole at a perfect time in the round...


Paul,


I 100% agree with you on the pacing sentiment.  That’s why when I suggested changes to the hole, I made a conscious effort to not make it harder, and also did not want to add a 2nd hazard because that would change the feel of the hole...a mistake IMO.  Simply squeezing the tee shot to make it harder for a 25 handicapper is the exact wrong approach.  The thought was more to give the player the option to either spread the difficultly across 2 shots or delay it all to the 2nd shot.


It’s also why I suggested playing 13 different if 14 was played as a par 3.  I feel no need to maintain the par of 71, but the last thing anyone needs is a hard par 3 at that point in the round without softening an adjacent hole in the process.  13 is a great par 4 approach green, but the valley short gives some potential for using it as a par 5, like #2’s 16th hole.  Though similar length, I don’t think 8 could ever be a useful par 5.  It would just be a parade of people rocketing drivers in to the hill and then proceeding down to the marshy left for an around the hill off balance 2nd and 0% chance of getting within 100 yards of the green without doing something reckless.

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 14 at Dormie
« Reply #23 on: January 01, 2022, 03:59:42 PM »
…but the next 7 holes contain four of the six hardest holes on the course per the scorecard.
The stroke index is not a measure of how "hard" a hole is. Good players often love par fives (relative to par) and thus find them to be the "easier" holes.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 14 at Dormie
« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2022, 12:40:06 PM »
…but the next 7 holes contain four of the six hardest holes on the course per the scorecard.
The stroke index is not a measure of how "hard" a hole is. Good players often love par fives (relative to par) and thus find them to be the "easier" holes.


I normally agree but 10 for higher handicappers and old men like me is a bear. Unless I hit a good drive down the left side I just can't carry the marsh on the second shot.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

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