[Mike_Young]

That's not specific enough for any alarm.  What is it exactly that people fail to see?

I think people fail to see that since the late 1980's golf was built mainly as a loss leader.  It was used to sell hotel rooms in a desert or create housing developments in places that had no great natural views such as mountains, lakes, oceans and was even an addition to some of those natural amenities.  But in creating these courses the actual game itself was not being considered.  The excessive conditioning was there to sell homes or rooms over the competition.  A course that cost 20 million to build could generate maybe 40 homes per hole or more.  And at say $200,000 per lot that's 8 million bucks per hole.  Once the lots were sold and the developer was done he wasn't worried bout how the homeowners took care of the place. So much junk was built that it was/is impossible for members to afford the upkeep. That's how this all got out of whack. 
AND also golf is such an easy target for activist because it is viewed as elitist.  But I think the younger guys see it differently and are gradually gaining ground.

[Jim Lipstate]

In some ways I am thankful for global warming. A few years back I was in Jackson, Wyoming and learned that 12,000 years ago (a minuscule amount of geologic time) the whole area sat under 3,000 feet of ice. Glaciers extended as far south as St. Louis and covered New York City. You can see striations in the rocks in Central Park to this day from the glaciers. A return to an ice age would be a true global catastrophe.


A distinguishing characteristic of the human race is our almost infinite adaptability. There are humans living in the Arctic and Antarctic. There are humans living on the equator. We live at sea level and in the Himalayas.


No doubt that the climate has been warming but we will adapt. Golf will adapt and we labor and play on. Enough with the gloom and doom. Nothing stays the same. Accept and move forward.

[Jason Thurman]

While it's interesting to consider from my golf-loving perspective, it's pretty clear to me that golf is a very peripheral concern in considering climate change.


That's true of conversations that scapegoat the game as a contributing factor. Because sure, the average golf course is probably a net-negative when it comes to environmental impact. But also, golf course contributions to climate change are miniscule in impact compared to a host of other factors. But tackling those factors is hard, and inconvenient, and it's a lot easier to scream "Look at those fat cat golfers and their overcarboned courses!" than to do something that makes any difference at all.


And as the impact of climate change continues to escalate in first-world countries, concern for this game will seem awfully petty compared to concern over famine, flooding, escalating storms, etc. Or maybe I just missed the Mad Max scene where everybody sheds a tear for the demise of Royal Melbourne.

[James Reader]

In some ways I am thankful for global warming. A few years back I was in Jackson, Wyoming and learned that 12,000 years ago (a minuscule amount of geologic time) the whole area sat under 3,000 feet of ice. Glaciers extended as far south as St. Louis and covered New York City. You can see striations in the rocks in Central Park to this day from the glaciers. A return to an ice age would be a true global catastrophe.


A distinguishing characteristic of the human race is our almost infinite adaptability. There are humans living in the Arctic and Antarctic. There are humans living on the equator. We live at sea level and in the Himalayas.


No doubt that the climate has been warming but we will adapt. Golf will adapt and we labor and play on. Enough with the gloom and doom. Nothing stays the same. Accept and move forward.

This may be the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever read on this site.

[Steve Lang]

   Jim L, I agree.   Jim R I disagree.

Funny the mention of the ICE AGE, did you know that wooly mammoths roamed the Wisconsin glacier's edge along the Ohio River and as it receded north?

I remember in the 70's when the enviro activist experts were predicting an imminent new ice age and global cooling, mass disruption of the food supply, migrations, starvation, etc.. It was trumpeted far and wide in all the popular news magazines, a media example at the time that if it bleeds, it leads!

Not much has changed, the long term view of climate is that it has always changed, there's those pesky solar cycles, solar system wide planetary adiabatic heating and cooling of atmospheres, be they predominantly N2 like earth or CO2 or H2 like our neighbors...  Climate change is like bowel movements, there's perturbations but ultimately equilibrium.

There's got to be better things to worry about, really, but if it makes folks feel better, go for it, just be patient, you're not going to see real impacts any time soon kids.

Cheers all, and play on!

[Jason Thurman]

In some ways I am thankful for global warming. A few years back I was in Jackson, Wyoming and learned that 12,000 years ago (a minuscule amount of geologic time) the whole area sat under 3,000 feet of ice. Glaciers extended as far south as St. Louis and covered New York City. You can see striations in the rocks in Central Park to this day from the glaciers. A return to an ice age would be a true global catastrophe.


A distinguishing characteristic of the human race is our almost infinite adaptability. There are humans living in the Arctic and Antarctic. There are humans living on the equator. We live at sea level and in the Himalayas.


No doubt that the climate has been warming but we will adapt. Golf will adapt and we labor and play on. Enough with the gloom and doom. Nothing stays the same. Accept and move forward.

This may be the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever read on this site.

You should search for some past threads on this topic... I recall one almost-verbatim quote about "Everybody wants to talk global warming and meanwhile it snowed 13 inches at my house last night."

[Kalen Braley]

Its hard to be optimistic that humanity is going to come together to implement real solutions that will matter in light of current conditions.

Communities at every level... local, regional, national, etc. are fractured and polarized on nearly every issue whether it be political, economic, scientific, religious, etc. in nature...and can't even agree on basic facts. Combined with current levels of global disparity that already exist at unprecedented levels between the haves and have nots, things will almost certainly continue in business-as-usual fashion.

[Mike Wagner]

In some ways I am thankful for global warming. A few years back I was in Jackson, Wyoming and learned that 12,000 years ago (a minuscule amount of geologic time) the whole area sat under 3,000 feet of ice. Glaciers extended as far south as St. Louis and covered New York City. You can see striations in the rocks in Central Park to this day from the glaciers. A return to an ice age would be a true global catastrophe.


A distinguishing characteristic of the human race is our almost infinite adaptability. There are humans living in the Arctic and Antarctic. There are humans living on the equator. We live at sea level and in the Himalayas.


No doubt that the climate has been warming but we will adapt. Golf will adapt and we labor and play on. Enough with the gloom and doom. Nothing stays the same. Accept and move forward.

This may be the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever read on this site.

...and still no one can discuss specific ramifications.  Please tell us why this is ridiculous.  Specifics, please.

[Mike Wagner]

Its hard to be optimistic that humanity is going to come together to implement real solutions that will matter in light of current conditions.

Communities at every level... local, regional, national, etc. are fractured and polarized on nearly every issue whether it be political, economic, scientific, religious, etc. in nature...and can't even agree on basic facts. Combined with current levels of global disparity that already exist at unprecedented levels between the haves and have nots, things will almost certainly continue in business-as-usual fashion.

Seriously??  Would you not concede tremendous progress on every level in the US (individual to corporate) over the last 20-30 years?  If you don't think so, try putting a beer can in someone's garbage at a dinner party in Seattle.  They'll shame you out the door ..lol

[Brian_Ewen]

I often wonder where the 1.2 billion golf balls that are produced every year end up.

[Thomas Dai]

These words were written by Rob N on another current thread about a particular course.
I hope he doesn’t mind me quoting them here but they seem in general terms to have some relevance to this thread as well ………..….. “ simply a course (that) should not have been built in this environment.”
Atb

Ref thread - https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,70495.0.html

[John Emerson]

  Jim L, I agree.   Jim R I disagree.

Funny the mention of the ICE AGE, did you know that wooly mammoths roamed the Wisconsin glacier's edge along the Ohio River and as it receded north?

I remember in the 70's when the enviro activist experts were predicting an imminent new ice age and global cooling, mass disruption of the food supply, migrations, starvation, etc.. It was trumpeted far and wide in all the popular news magazines, a media example at the time that if it bleeds, it leads!

Not much has changed, the long term view of climate is that it has always changed, there's those pesky solar cycles, solar system wide planetary adiabatic heating and cooling of atmospheres, be they predominantly N2 like earth or CO2 or H2 like our neighbors...  Climate change is like bowel movements, there's perturbations but ultimately equilibrium.

There's got to be better things to worry about, really, but if it makes folks feel better, go for it, just be patient, you're not going to see real impacts any time soon kids.

Cheers all, and play on!

I doubt you’d find more than a handful of (quack) scientist that agree with this.  There is overwhelming consensus that human impacts are going to pose major problems of something doesn’t change.  It is hard to get scientist to agree on anything, but they do agree catastrophic human problems are looming due to climate change.  Generalizing the climate issue in this tone is ignorant at best.


This is, in general, the same basis for the ridiculous argument for COVID from the anti vaxers.

[John Emerson]

Golf is more willing to do more than they are to do less.  The thread about subair is a perfect example.  Growing grasses in environments where they have no business growing requires more inputs as oppose to growing the adapted species that require less.  Just because one can, doesn’t mean one should.  Golf will dump tons of money into something that doesn’t make a lot of sense in order to beat their chest.  It’s a constant state of keeping up with Jones’. This has repercussions that many fail to see.  How many homeowners pump tons of inputs, that are detrimental to the climate change cause, into their own properties because they saw it at their local golf course or on TV?  I’ll answer that….a lot!  Add those inputs (excessive nutrient loads, carbon emissions etc)up over the entire USA and we have a big issue.
We have to be better.  Golf is front and center and the poster child/scapegoat of “excess”.  Food gets a pass (kinda) because we cannot exist without it…golf is a luxury item that will be first on the chopping block when the rubber hits the road and if we are not proactive we are essentially shooting ourself in the foot.
I think maybe I love golf, grass, and soils more than humans and I do not want to see it disappear.
Someone mentioned that we need leaders (clubs with plenty of resources/highly ranked), instead of followers, to set the tone and lead by example….this has never been more true.

What exact repercussions do we fail to see?

The trickle down impacts of lush, green, high input golf courses.

That's not specific enough for any alarm.  What is it exactly that people fail to see?

Ok so turfgrass is the largest crop in the USA (it’s not close either) if we look at it in this light.  It covers the most acres.  It is ubiquitous.  Many land managers and homeowners make many different input decisions.  Where do you think their influence comes from?  It’s golf or any other sport where turf is professionally managed.  If golf course are lush and green then land managers and homeowners follow suit.  It’s been that way since post Ww2.  This is the trickle down effect I’m referring to.  Millions of acres of turf under and a million different managers who take their management advice from Augusta National during masters week. The “Augusta Syndrome” has big impacts that are not acknowledged. Lots of fertilizer, pesticides, lots of mowing, rinse and repeat. Golf course managers are not the problem.  It’s the golfers who pay the bills and have ludicrous expectations that harm the game and pave the way for unqualified people to manage turf that do the most harm. Then the finger get pointed at golf when they are actually doing the least amount of harm with impacts on a minuscule amount of land, but the perception ruins the image and gives it a bad name.  Land owners who manage turf do the most harm, second only to agriculture, but they get their influence from golf!


This is what I mean when I say we need leaders!  We need golf to show brown is cool and acceptable.

[John Kirk]

Mike,

Here's my answer to your question/challenge:


Due mostly to the practice of burning fossil fuels, human induced climate change is happening much faster than previous shifts in global temperature.  Human beings can move to more suitable weather in a matter of months or years.  But the plants and other animals who live somewhere must adapt to the changing environment, and many of them are quite sensitive to their environment.  Fruits, vegetables and grains may not grow as abundantly as the weather warms.  There is no guarantee that ample topsoil for productive farming exists at higher latitudes.  Human migration will be an enormously expensive proposition.  What shall we do?  Borrow money for a new 20 million person city in Canada? 

We talk about humans being very adaptable, but that all goes out the door when the air conditioning no longer works.  Human caused climate change endangers a significant percentage of living things, and is economically disastrous.

This is just one aspect of the dire consequences of human overpopulation and resource depletion.  It's a slow moving train wreck, but it's happening.  I would not concede tremendous progress on every level.  For one thing, the country seems a much less happy and safe place.  People can be awfully devious when they don't have what they want or need.

So that's what I think about that.  Count your blessings and try your best to help out a little.

[Steve Lang]

  Jim L, I agree.   Jim R I disagree.

Funny the mention of the ICE AGE, did you know that wooly mammoths roamed the Wisconsin glacier's edge along the Ohio River and as it receded north?

I remember in the 70's when the enviro activist experts were predicting an imminent new ice age and global cooling, mass disruption of the food supply, migrations, starvation, etc.. It was trumpeted far and wide in all the popular news magazines, a media example at the time that if it bleeds, it leads!

Not much has changed, the long term view of climate is that it has always changed, there's those pesky solar cycles, solar system wide planetary adiabatic heating and cooling of atmospheres, be they predominantly N2 like earth or CO2 or H2 like our neighbors...  Climate change is like bowel movements, there's perturbations but ultimately equilibrium.

There's got to be better things to worry about, really, but if it makes folks feel better, go for it, just be patient, you're not going to see real impacts any time soon kids.

Cheers all, and play on!

I doubt you’d find more than a handful of (quack) scientist that agree with this.  There is overwhelming consensus that human impacts are going to pose major problems of something doesn’t change.  It is hard to get scientist to agree on anything, but they do agree catastrophic human problems are looming due to climate change.  Generalizing the climate issue in this tone is ignorant at best.


This is, in general, the same basis for the ridiculous argument for COVID from the anti vaxers.

C'mon man, you have to call me an ignorant quack?  How do you want to discuss science, and please share your credentials so I can understand where you're coming from.


ps I have my shots [size=78%]         [/size]

[Mark_Fine]

As just one example there is a reason ozone depleting gases such as chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs), hydrochlorofluorocarbons (HCFCs), halons, carbon tetrachloride, and so on are and or have been scaled heavily back on use.  It is frankly silly to think man is not having a major impact on the health and condition of the planet.

As I said earlier, golf courses need to be responsible and play their part in being more environmentally friendly and more of the top courses need to set a good example. When more courses (particularly those on TV or those on the Top 100 lists) start to get demerits for wall to wall green and perfectly manicured lush conditions and instead get praised for being off color and a little brown and rough around the edges maybe this will get others to follow.




Sent from my iPhone

[JLahrman]

I remember in the 70's when the enviro activist experts were predicting an imminent new ice age and global cooling, mass disruption of the food supply, migrations, starvation, etc.. It was trumpeted far and wide in all the popular news magazines, a media example at the time that if it bleeds, it leads!

In the 1970s there were a handful of scientists looking at recent cooling trends, and some media outlets and even a few scientific journals wrote up stories about it. But while there were fewer scientists studying the climate back in the 1970, the majority of them were forecasting global warming.

[Jim Lipstate]

There is no doubt the climate has warmed. There are times in recorded history where there has been cooling also. I posted because of the at times hysterical apocalyptic pronouncements in the media in regard to climate change. I remember after Hurricane Katrina when Brian Williams at the time the anchor at NBC waded into the Vermilion River in Lafayette, Louisiana to talk about the flooding after the storm. I live in Lafayette and there was no flooding. We live two hours away from New Orleans. He jumped into the river to film just for the (false) optics and sensationalism.


I am all in favor of being a good steward of the planet. Let’s develop responsibly. Let’s conserve our resources. I just want us to do so with a clear understanding that the planet will continue to exist long after we shuffle off this mortal coil.

[Steve Lang]

   JLahrman,


In the 70's folks were barely figuring out what the Keeling Curve implied and understanding diurnal and seasonal CO2 balances.  In grad school meteorology class, I can't remember a peep or discussion or tech seminar on subject of global warming issues.  Prognostic atmospheric computer modeling was focused on weather forecasting and photochemical smog reactions producing ozone hours or days in the future, not years or decades or longer periods now being forecast for climate change..


Just saying, did you have some experience on it in the 70's?

[astavrides]

  JLahrman,


In the 70's folks were barely figuring out what the Keeling Curve implied and understanding diurnal and seasonal CO2 balances.  In grad school meteorology class, I can't remember a peep or discussion or tech seminar on subject of global warming issues.  Prognostic atmospheric computer modeling was focused on weather forecasting and photochemical smog reactions producing ozone hours or days in the future, not years or decades or longer periods now being forecast for climate change..


Just saying, did you have some experience on it in the 70's?

A couple of the first few hits when you google, 'Did they know about climate change in the 70s?'...


https://skepticalscience.com/ice-age-predictions-in-1970s-intermediate.htm
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/exxon-knew-about-climate-change-almost-40-years-ago/

[Mike Wagner]

  Jim L, I agree.   Jim R I disagree.

Funny the mention of the ICE AGE, did you know that wooly mammoths roamed the Wisconsin glacier's edge along the Ohio River and as it receded north?

I remember in the 70's when the enviro activist experts were predicting an imminent new ice age and global cooling, mass disruption of the food supply, migrations, starvation, etc.. It was trumpeted far and wide in all the popular news magazines, a media example at the time that if it bleeds, it leads!

Not much has changed, the long term view of climate is that it has always changed, there's those pesky solar cycles, solar system wide planetary adiabatic heating and cooling of atmospheres, be they predominantly N2 like earth or CO2 or H2 like our neighbors...  Climate change is like bowel movements, there's perturbations but ultimately equilibrium.

There's got to be better things to worry about, really, but if it makes folks feel better, go for it, just be patient, you're not going to see real impacts any time soon kids.

Cheers all, and play on!

I doubt you’d find more than a handful of (quack) scientist that agree with this.  There is overwhelming consensus that human impacts are going to pose major problems of something doesn’t change.  It is hard to get scientist to agree on anything, but they do agree catastrophic human problems are looming due to climate change.  Generalizing the climate issue in this tone is ignorant at best.


This is, in general, the same basis for the ridiculous argument for COVID from the anti vaxers.

Can you define looming?  What's the deadline for catastrophe?

[Thomas Dai]

This is what I mean when I say we need leaders!  We need golf to show brown is cool and acceptable.

+1
…and can be played on a smaller acreage footprint.
Atb

[James Reader]

  Jim L, I agree.   Jim R I disagree.

Funny the mention of the ICE AGE, did you know that wooly mammoths roamed the Wisconsin glacier's edge along the Ohio River and as it receded north?

I remember in the 70's when the enviro activist experts were predicting an imminent new ice age and global cooling, mass disruption of the food supply, migrations, starvation, etc.. It was trumpeted far and wide in all the popular news magazines, a media example at the time that if it bleeds, it leads!

Not much has changed, the long term view of climate is that it has always changed, there's those pesky solar cycles, solar system wide planetary adiabatic heating and cooling of atmospheres, be they predominantly N2 like earth or CO2 or H2 like our neighbors...  Climate change is like bowel movements, there's perturbations but ultimately equilibrium.

There's got to be better things to worry about, really, but if it makes folks feel better, go for it, just be patient, you're not going to see real impacts any time soon kids.

Cheers all, and play on!

I doubt you’d find more than a handful of (quack) scientist that agree with this.  There is overwhelming consensus that human impacts are going to pose major problems of something doesn’t change.  It is hard to get scientist to agree on anything, but they do agree catastrophic human problems are looming due to climate change.  Generalizing the climate issue in this tone is ignorant at best.


This is, in general, the same basis for the ridiculous argument for COVID from the anti vaxers.

Can you define looming?  What's the deadline for catastrophe?

I won’t for one minute pretend to be an expert on this but these people are - [size=78%]https://www.ipcc.ch/[/size]. If you’re really interested in the answer to those questions - or in any doubt that this will be existential for human civilisation if we don’t take actions urgently - you might want to read some of their reports.

[James Reader]

In some ways I am thankful for global warming. A few years back I was in Jackson, Wyoming and learned that 12,000 years ago (a minuscule amount of geologic time) the whole area sat under 3,000 feet of ice. Glaciers extended as far south as St. Louis and covered New York City. You can see striations in the rocks in Central Park to this day from the glaciers. A return to an ice age would be a true global catastrophe.


A distinguishing characteristic of the human race is our almost infinite adaptability. There are humans living in the Arctic and Antarctic. There are humans living on the equator. We live at sea level and in the Himalayas.


No doubt that the climate has been warming but we will adapt. Golf will adapt and we labor and play on. Enough with the gloom and doom. Nothing stays the same. Accept and move forward.

This may be the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever read on this site.

...and still no one can discuss specific ramifications.  Please tell us why this is ridiculous.  Specifics, please.

Increased catastrophic weather events; sea level rises; large areas of the globe becoming uninhabitable, leading to mass human migration; massive loss of biodiversity; inability to produce enough food to support the human population.  Not specific enough?  If you are genuinely interested in more detail, you’ll find it here - ]https://www.ipcc.ch/

[Mike Wagner]

In some ways I am thankful for global warming. A few years back I was in Jackson, Wyoming and learned that 12,000 years ago (a minuscule amount of geologic time) the whole area sat under 3,000 feet of ice. Glaciers extended as far south as St. Louis and covered New York City. You can see striations in the rocks in Central Park to this day from the glaciers. A return to an ice age would be a true global catastrophe.


A distinguishing characteristic of the human race is our almost infinite adaptability. There are humans living in the Arctic and Antarctic. There are humans living on the equator. We live at sea level and in the Himalayas.


No doubt that the climate has been warming but we will adapt. Golf will adapt and we labor and play on. Enough with the gloom and doom. Nothing stays the same. Accept and move forward.

This may be the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever read on this site.

...and still no one can discuss specific ramifications.  Please tell us why this is ridiculous.  Specifics, please.

Increased catastrophic weather events; sea level rises; large areas of the globe becoming uninhabitable, leading to mass human migration; massive loss of biodiversity; inability to produce enough food to support the human population.  Not specific enough?  If you are genuinely interested in more detail, you’ll find it here - ]https://www.ipcc.ch/

I'm not interested in the obvious doomsday stuff everyone has talked about for years that hasn't happened.  I'm interested in specifically golf's % contribution to temperatures rising, and specifically what YOU or anyone else specifically is going to do about it.  I think in general, most of us are more responsible than in years past.  I'm not interested in preaching and generalities until those preaching are willing to give up something.

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