[Tom_Doak]

I know Ron Whitten tried to actively get raters to off the main path yet still worthy candidates for Best New, Best in State, Top 100 whatever.  I would say it should be part of the panel head's job in a way.  I think most of the high profile projects by high profile designers get more than enough interest from raters, but then, I don't know all the raters.


I understand it has to be done without the wink and nod if asked where it should be ranked, of course.

You were supposed to leave out the wink 


When I ran the GOLF Magazine panel, I would only encourage panelists to go and see courses which didn't have enough votes to be eligible, and especially those which had good votes but not enough of them.  The most bothersome thing to me was that many panelists were too busy adding to their count of top-100 courses played to have a look at the courses next door.

[Joe_Tucholski]

A slight aside to this is what are the clubs/courses who have undertaken restorations etc planning to do so that they don't need to undertake another expensive/course closing restoration in a few years/decades time?

Um...they'll do what is trendy down the road.  The house analogy earlier seems good but I think a hotel is probably closer.  Hotels have regular maintenance but eventually they have to shut down to do a complete remodel.  The bones of the structure don't change but the feel and look certainly do.


I said it in another thread but Pinehurst is closing #8 next year.  They aren't calling it a remodel or restoration but they're taking out and replacing the turf.  If they don't change bunkers I'll be surprised.  Not sure why it isn't being called a restoration as they seem really trendy...guess you can't restore something that's fairly young (unlike #2 &#4)

[V_Halyard]

From the business perspective, a restoration (or renovation) is what Jeff Brauer would call a marketing plan.  In most cases, the marketing is being aimed at members and potential members, but at the high end a lot of the marketing is aimed at panelists.  And of course Ran is an evangelist for restorations and has stacked the panel with people who agree, so these results are hardly unexpected.

This does not mean that the list will wind up being all Golden Age parkland courses.  There are many many unwritten quotas going on in panelists’ heads, which is part of the subjectivity of all this.  When St Patrick’s goes into the list and some people opine that it’s my best work, Pacific Dunes and Tara Iti fall a couple of notches, and so do the courses in Ireland which are just hanging onto the bottom of the list.

Remember a year or two ago when I expressed shock that Somerset Hills was rated so high on the list?  The ascent of Baltusrol will likely take it down a few pegs, even though that had nothing to do with the quality of the work done at Somerset Hills.  Which also, actually, calls into question whether the high ranking of Baltusrol is really all about the quality of the work done there, or whether a lot of this is just a power struggle behind the scenes.

Old news but our course needed a Reno, badly. We had less than 700k. We were in a place where there wasn’t even a top 400 course. We were trying to do a decent job. We didn’t screw it up, became a curiosity and did a job well enough to convince GCA’s Joe Andriole and Tom D to stop by.
It was actually GCA (Jack, Jeff, Pat) specifically that helped us become credible enough to invite Raters to visit. We dragged another classic into the light in our draft and helped them get events and visits.

Specifically, GolfWeek Classic because that was the only relevant point of entry interested in us.
Our restoration was peanuts by Precision Air standards.  Not just not big money…No money. Extended lots of invites and hosted gca crews. Some were raters many not. Anybody was invited.  We were an organic climb. Lawsonia is an organic climb

Ratings help with membership and events for smaller markets and public revenue. They are not perfect but they are a baseline like a restaurant star. You may not like them, but they are causing folks that look at the courses. They’re causing all of you reading this to question, argue about, and explore golf architecture.

[Mike_Young]

I don't think the best looking women in the USA are in the Miss America pageant.  Just wanting to be in such an event requires a personality trait that is a turn off.  They are high maintenance women, it is just a part of that game.  There are a lot of others I would prefer.  Same goes for golf courses/clubs.  I can appreciate the efforts made by some of these "top" clubs but often it is just a chase.  The golf business itself has done what it can to create the chase.  All about $$$$...

[jeffwarne]

I don't think the best looking women in the USA are in the Miss America pageant.  Just wanting to be in such an event requires a personality trait that is a turn off.  They are high maintenance women, it is just a part of that game.  There are a lot of others I would prefer.  Same goes for golf courses/clubs.  I can appreciate the efforts made by some of these "top" clubs but often it is just a chase.  The golf business itself has done what it can to create the chase.  All about $$$$...

+1
The chase has gone on for years, at least since the 1960's.
The only difference is today's in fashion/trendy restorations are yesterday's 60's beehives or 80's big hair, with a committee of skinny jean clad grandchildren of the same Sansabelt wearing one's making the decisions 50 years ago.
I'm always amazed at the confidence and bullet points displayed though, as if no one knew how to build or maintain a bunker or a green 40 years ago.(for about 1/3 the inflation adjusted price).


The formula has been made quite clear,though hindsight may disagree

[Mark_Fine]

Since everyone loves lists so much we need a list of the most improved golf courses for projects costing under $1MM.  Those are the courses where far and away the huge majority of golfers are playing and where the benefit of smart/creative design and on going maintenance spending of limited dollars allows green fees to stay affordable. Very few clubs/communities have someone willing to write an eight figure donation to have their club/local course renovated/restored/blown up and redone.  These projects don’t get the fame and recognition but are the ones that are keeping golf healthy and delivering a fun and challenging experience to a wide range of golfers. 

[Tom_Doak]

Since everyone loves lists so much we need a list of the most improved golf courses for projects costing under $1MM.  Those are the courses where far and away the huge majority of golfers are playing and where the benefit of smart/creative design and on going maintenance spending of limited dollars allows green fees to stay affordable. Very few clubs/communities have someone willing to write an eight figure donation to have their club/local course renovated/restored/blown up and redone.  These projects don’t get the fame and recognition but are the ones that are keeping golf healthy and delivering a fun and challenging experience to a wide range of golfers.

Yes, Mark, I’m sure you have some of your own work to nominate . . .


Years ago GOLF DIGEST made the priorities for Best Renovation clear.  They had all of their data from before & after so they could easily have used it to calculate the Most Improved courses.  Instead, they rewarded the highest “after” scores, rewarding the haves over the have-nots.  Some of them had barely made any changes!

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
You know darn well that taking a course from a Doak score of say 3 to a Doak score of say 5 or 6 is not going to make any of the high profile lists (that is/was never the intent) but it will make a huge quality of golf experience difference for those who play there.  A list like this would be more about showing other clubs/courses what can be accomplished without spending a bazillion dollars which might encourage other courses in that kind of range to do the same. 


I can't speak for what Golf Digest did or what their criteria is but I am just saying there is room for yet another list and this one might really make a difference which is what all many of us are just trying to do.  Do you see no merit in having an annual list like this?


I was at a public course the other day called Winston Lake in NC, an old Ellis Maples design ($15 to play).  We stopped in to see/play it before playing Old Town Club in the afternoon. I got talking with a local who said back to me, "you do realize, most of us will never ever play like a course like Old Town so who cares what they did there or how great it is". 


With a minimal budget, that Ellis Maples design could be notched up for those playing it and they would love it.  It is very rough and tired right now and could use some touch up. 

[Mike_Young]

I don't think the best looking women in the USA are in the Miss America pageant.  Just wanting to be in such an event requires a personality trait that is a turn off.  They are high maintenance women, it is just a part of that game.  There are a lot of others I would prefer.  Same goes for golf courses/clubs.  I can appreciate the efforts made by some of these "top" clubs but often it is just a chase.  The golf business itself has done what it can to create the chase.  All about $$$$...

+1
The chase has gone on for years, at least since the 1960's.
The only difference is today's in fashion/trendy restorations are yesterday's 60's beehives or 80's big hair, with a committee of skinny jean clad grandchildren of the same Sansabelt wearing one's making the decisions 50 years ago.
I'm always amazed at the confidence and bullet points displayed though, as if no one knew how to build or maintain a bunker or a green 40 years ago.(for about 1/3 the inflation adjusted price).


The formula has been made quite clear,though hindsight may disagree

Are those my pants?

[Tim Martin]

I don't think the best looking women in the USA are in the Miss America pageant.  Just wanting to be in such an event requires a personality trait that is a turn off.  They are high maintenance women, it is just a part of that game.  There are a lot of others I would prefer.  Same goes for golf courses/clubs.  I can appreciate the efforts made by some of these "top" clubs but often it is just a chase.  The golf business itself has done what it can to create the chase.  All about $$$$...

+1
The chase has gone on for years, at least since the 1960's.
The only difference is today's in fashion/trendy restorations are yesterday's 60's beehives or 80's big hair, with a committee of skinny jean clad grandchildren of the same Sansabelt wearing one's making the decisions 50 years ago.
I'm always amazed at the confidence and bullet points displayed though, as if no one knew how to build or maintain a bunker or a green 40 years ago.(for about 1/3 the inflation adjusted price).


The formula has been made quite clear,though hindsight may disagree

Are those my pants?

Mike- I handicapped you more for a pair of capris in a pastel shade.

[Mike_Young]

+1
The chase has gone on for years, at least since the 1960's.
The only difference is today's in fashion/trendy restorations are yesterday's 60's beehives or 80's big hair, with a committee of skinny jean clad grandchildren of the same Sansabelt wearing one's making the decisions 50 years ago.
I'm always amazed at the confidence and bullet points displayed though, as if no one knew how to build or maintain a bunker or a green 40 years ago.(for about 1/3 the inflation adjusted price).


The formula has been made quite clear,though hindsight may disagree


Are those my pants?



Mike- I handicapped you more for a pair of capris in a pastel shade.

Tim,When I play ranked courses I wear LuLu Lemon Husky models in khaki...otherwise it is capris...

[Tim Martin]

+1
The chase has gone on for years, at least since the 1960's.
The only difference is today's in fashion/trendy restorations are yesterday's 60's beehives or 80's big hair, with a committee of skinny jean clad grandchildren of the same Sansabelt wearing one's making the decisions 50 years ago.
I'm always amazed at the confidence and bullet points displayed though, as if no one knew how to build or maintain a bunker or a green 40 years ago.(for about 1/3 the inflation adjusted price).


The formula has been made quite clear,though hindsight may disagree


Are those my pants?



Mike- I handicapped you more for a pair of capris in a pastel shade.

Tim,When I play ranked courses I wear LuLu Lemon Husky models in khaki...otherwise it is capris...

 

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