[Tommy Williamsen]

When I go to the practice tee before a round I normally only hit three woods. If I can hit that club I feel ready to play. I remember that years ago hitting a three wood off the fairway wasn't a big deal. I hit driver off the deck for years. I think the grass in the fairways were not cut as short as they are today. It seems like there was always grass under the ball. I had a couple of friends to Ballyhack a few weeks ago and they remarked that the fairways ran as fast as their greens. It was an overstatement but the point was that the fairways were cut really short. There is little grass under the ball.


I played two courses this year, however, that have their fairways cut short but there still is grass under the ball. One used Paspalum. The fairways were cut short but the grass is so tight the ball seemed to sit up. The same thing happened at Franklin Hills outside Detroit. I don't know what kind of grass was in the fairways but the "thread count" was so great that I never felt that I couldn't get a bit of forgiveness on a less than pure strike.


Are fairways getting tighter on more courses? I know sometimes I root for the ball to get in the first cut.

[jeffwarne]

I'm wonder whether more money is spent to
1.cut and roll turf to make fairways/esp approaches tighter?
2. or on grasses that allow the ball to "sit up",


And in which order one should follow the process...
There tend to be multiple subsets ,sequences and reversals to this process

[Tommy Williamsen]

Jeff, on many of the courses I play the entrances to the green are handmowed to get them even shorter. It makes a sand wedge a bit difficult to hit when the fairway is a bit moist. I have to buy wedges with very little bounce.

[Rob Marshall]

Jeff, on many of the courses I play the entrances to the green are handmowed to get them even shorter. It makes a sand wedge a bit difficult to hit when the fairway is a bit moist. I have to buy wedges with very little bounce.

Tommy, I would think on tight moist conditions you would want more bounce. Tight and firm I would agree.


Paspalum is great in the fairway. Hate it on greens.

[JESII]

Good players have always taken the heat for pressuring their clubs to make changes that both make the course more difficult AND benefit their own games.


Who exactly is it that pushes this preparation/presentation on a daily basis?  It's probably my number 1 pet peeve about playing well regarded courses these days. They all seem to have the money to treat the short grass within 20 yards of the green like a green...

[Tommy Williamsen]

Jeff, on many of the courses I play the entrances to the green are handmowed to get them even shorter. It makes a sand wedge a bit difficult to hit when the fairway is a bit moist. I have to buy wedges with very little bounce.

Tommy, I would think on tight moist conditions you would want more bounce. Tight and firm I would agree.


Paspalum is great in the fairway. Hate it on greens.

Rob, I have tried more bounce on softer conditions but still like less bounce better. I seem to have a cleaner strike.

[Jason Topp]

I have been confused on bounce as well.  This video is informative:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6ku6oOv1GA

[Rob Marshall]

Jeff, on many of the courses I play the entrances to the green are handmowed to get them even shorter. It makes a sand wedge a bit difficult to hit when the fairway is a bit moist. I have to buy wedges with very little bounce.

Tommy, I would think on tight moist conditions you would want more bounce. Tight and firm I would agree.


Paspalum is great in the fairway. Hate it on greens.

Rob, I have tried more bounce on softer conditions but still like less bounce better. I seem to have a cleaner strike.

Hardest shot for me to hit in Florida is a 40 yard shot from a tight soft lie. Hate it.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Jeff, on many of the courses I play the entrances to the green are handmowed to get them even shorter. It makes a sand wedge a bit difficult to hit when the fairway is a bit moist. I have to buy wedges with very little bounce.

Hardest shot for me to hit in Florida is a 40 yard shot from a tight soft lie. Hate it.

Especially when it is into the grain of common Bermuda.

[John Blain]

So many courses these days particularly-but not exclusively- high end private clubs are being maintained at the "extreme."
Fairways and approaches like kitchen floors, greens running at 13 when they were designed for 6 or 7. I have friends at these clubs that tell me they aim for the first cut of rough because it's more playable and more fun than playing from the fairway. And chipping? Forget it. Because the lies are so tight they pull out a hybrid or fairway metal. It's crazy. I ask these people if they enjoy these conditions and they invariably say "no, not really." And they are paying lots of money for the privilege.


A few years ago a superintendent from a Top 100 club in the Metropolitan NY section said the following in an interview with MET Golfer magazine:
"It's amazing how much more fun the game would be and how much less expensive if you just raise the height of the mower."
So true

[Ken Moum]

Tommy,  re. three woods...don't discount how much fairway wood lofts have been jacked up.


From the 30's until the introduction of the second generation of Taylormade metal woods, a three wood had 17* of loft.


Traditional driver, two, three and four woods were 11*, 14*, 17*, and 20*. And those fairway woods had a brass sole plate that gave them a pretty low CG.


Now 17* is a five wood.


And, much as I hate to mention it the ability to hit a fairway wood off a tight lie is REALLY tied to clubhead speed. At age 74 I cannot elevate any wood with less than about 22*.


Fifty years ago my favorite fairway wood was a MacGregor 4 wood.


I still hav some beautiful Honma persimmons with graphite shafts. Maybe I'll get the 4 wood out.

[Jim Sherma]

The low spin ball also makes it hard to loft the ball and keep it in the air.


My club has tight fairways and when it gets wet it kind of sucks. Firm and tight when you can pinch it I’m fine with. Tight and mushy sucks. Last shot you want is tight wet lie that requires loft and spin bit less than a full shot. We have one short par four that I’ll lay up to a full pw with a 5 or 6 iron off the tee when it’s soft. When dry I’ll blow 3-wood or driver at the green comfortable with the result if I miss or come up short.

[Jerry Kluger]

I too have found that as I get older and club head speed slows the ability to get a fairway wood up is more difficult.  Fact is that you are supposed to hit down on a fairway wood - maybe not as much as a short iron - but you still have to hit down.  This is often pointed out by announcers on PGA Tour telecasts.  I remember a couple of years ago where a pretty good player gave a report on going to see Bob Vokey and get fitted for wedges and he was told that bounce is your friend on tight lies which I thought I understood after his explanation.  The whole wedge issue to me is a question of feel and technique which can vary depending on factors such as attack angle, etc.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Tommy,  re. three woods...don't discount how much fairway wood lofts have been jacked up.


From the 30's until the introduction of the second generation of Taylormade metal woods, a three wood had 17* of loft.


Traditional driver, two, three and four woods were 11*, 14*, 17*, and 20*. And those fairway woods had a brass sole plate that gave them a pretty low CG.


Now 17* is a five wood.


And, much as I hate to mention it the ability to hit a fairway wood off a tight lie is REALLY tied to clubhead speed. At age 74 I cannot elevate any wood with less than about 22*.


Fifty years ago my favorite fairway wood was a MacGregor 4 wood.


I still hav some beautiful Honma persimmons with graphite shafts. Maybe I'll get the 4 wood out.

Ken as one 74 year old to another, I hear you about the three wood. It was in time out most of the year. I have to be swing well to hit it now a days. My three wood/metal is 15 degrees. I used to have 13 degree one that I just killed. Not now.

[Craig Sweet]

I have been using a five wood...During fitting I said I wanted a fairway wood I could hit fairly high with about 190-200 yards of distance...This has worked perfect for me.

[Tim Martin]

Tommy,  re. three woods...don't discount how much fairway wood lofts have been jacked up.


From the 30's until the introduction of the second generation of Taylormade metal woods, a three wood had 17* of loft.


Traditional driver, two, three and four woods were 11*, 14*, 17*, and 20*. And those fairway woods had a brass sole plate that gave them a pretty low CG.


Now 17* is a five wood.


And, much as I hate to mention it the ability to hit a fairway wood off a tight lie is REALLY tied to clubhead speed. At age 74 I cannot elevate any wood with less than about 22*.


Fifty years ago my favorite fairway wood was a MacGregor 4 wood.


I still hav some beautiful Honma persimmons with graphite shafts. Maybe I'll get the 4 wood out.

Ken-I’m ten years younger than you and Tommy and went to a 4 wood/7 wood setup at around fifty years old. The clubs I have now are 2010 models with lofts of 17* and 21* and are matching from the same manufacturer. Before making the switch I carried 3,5,7 woods which called for too much decision making with the 3 wood not easy for me to launch off the deck. From a confidence and ease of selection standpoint the 4/7 made a big difference.

[Ben Stephens]

As we have mostly fescue/poa annua (some are ryegrass) in the UK which the ball tends to touch or be close to the surface of the ground - there are different interpretations of tight lies. I prefer to have it tight to the ground on the fairways especially on links courses.


Every time I play in the US the ball is quite far from the ground that it sometimes feels like its on quite a high tee this helps to hit the ball higher which is more suited on how to play US courses

[Tommy Williamsen]

Ben, interesting take on US fairways. I practice hitting off hardpan before I travel to GB&I. I have my wife putt from way off the green there. The US courses I play have fairways similar in length to many links courses. The biggest difference I see is in the moisture content. On northern courses with bent fairways they are kept moist. In GB&I off dry firm fairways you can hit it a bit fat with longer clubs and still have a decent strike. Do that on many courses over here and your ball comes up way short. Firmness matters.

[Brad Lawrence]

I’m torn on this one.  Fairways should be tight.  The approach should be almost green-like. But is it worth it if 1) it means having to keep the turf soft? 2) that kind of lie isn’t the ideal one?  As others have noted here, golfers would sometimes rather be in the first cut of rough or in a green side bunker than a tightly mown chipping area. One of my biggest pet peeves are approaches that are softer than the greens. I’m not the player I used to be but I can still play a little better than scratch and there’s never a time I want to hit a short iron or pitch of an extremely tight lie. Middle Irons, hybrids, and fairway woods, it doesn’t bother me at all. I live in a part of the world with Bermuda fairways and overseed in the colder months. I appreciate that little eighth of an inch cushion. It’s nice to know I’m not the only one that’s feeling punished for hitting the fairway on courses a couple hours north. But I also understand that if I’m not comfortable hitting a 50 yard pitch of a super tight soft lie, that’s a me problem.

[Rob Marshall]

"But I also understand that if I’m not comfortable hitting a 50 yard pitch of a super tight soft lie, that’s a me problem"

Brad, I think that shot is a problem for everyone. Nellie Korda chunked it in the bunker last weekend. I haven't met anyone who likes that shot.

[Garland Bayley]

"But I also understand that if I’m not comfortable hitting a 50 yard pitch of a super tight soft lie, that’s a me problem."

Brad, I think that shot is a problem for everyone. Nellie Korda chunked it in the bunker last weekend. I haven't met anyone who likes that shot.

[Garland Bayley]

Cary brought up the issue of codgers hitting 3 woods a few years back. I believe the suggestion he said he would follow was to put a three wood length shaft into a five wood to give a little extra speed to hit the five wood farther as he couldn't get the height he needed hitting 3 wood.

[Ben Stephens]

Ben, interesting take on US fairways. I practice hitting off hardpan before I travel to GB&I. I have my wife putt from way off the green there. The US courses I play have fairways similar in length to many links courses. The biggest difference I see is in the moisture content. On northern courses with bent fairways they are kept moist. In GB&I off dry firm fairways you can hit it a bit fat with longer clubs and still have a decent strike. Do that on many courses over here and your ball comes up way short. Firmness matters.

I guess its where I have played in the US - Ballymeade in NE, a number of courses in HHI especially the no longer Melrose course at Daufuskie Island which was heavily watered. Also have played Doral pre Trump and took a massive lump out of the ground with 60 deg wedge which the club did you come out of the ground so could have done my arm in.


The other aspect is chipping for me its a lot easier to lob the chips in the US even from rough as well as opposed to UK.


For me now having recently played a number of links courses much prefer the tight lies and need to go back to blades as I dislike the feel from cavity back irons

[Ken Moum]

Tommy,  re. three woods...don't discount how much fairway wood lofts have been jacked up.


From the 30's until the introduction of the second generation of Taylormade metal woods, a three wood had 17* of loft.


Traditional driver, two, three and four woods were 11*, 14*, 17*, and 20*. And those fairway woods had a brass sole plate that gave them a pretty low CG.


Now 17* is a five wood.


And, much as I hate to mention it the ability to hit a fairway wood off a tight lie is REALLY tied to clubhead speed. At age 74 I cannot elevate any wood with less than about 22*.


Fifty years ago my favorite fairway wood was a MacGregor 4 wood.


I still hav some beautiful Honma persimmons with graphite shafts. Maybe I'll get the 4 wood out.

Ken-I’m ten years younger than you and Tommy and went to a 4 wood/7 wood setup at around fifty years old. The clubs I have now are 2010 models with lofts of 17* and 21* and are matching from the same manufacturer. Before making the switch I carried 3,5,7 woods which called for too much decision making with the 3 wood not easy for me to launch off the deck. From a confidence and ease of selection standpoint the 4/7 made a big difference.

The lowest my handicap ever got was 5, and I was using a 17* three wood as a driver with a 20* five from the fairway.


In Ping 410/425 fairway woods that's a five and seven combo


I have a five and it's worthless to me off the deck.  And my 12* ladies Ping driver that measures 16* is better off the tee.


Playing tomorrow with my Honma persimmon four wood in my 8-club bag.

[jeffwarne]

So many courses these days particularly-but not exclusively- high end private clubs are being maintained at the "extreme."
Fairways and approaches like kitchen floors, greens running at 13 when they were designed for 6 or 7. I have friends at these clubs that tell me they aim for the first cut of rough because it's more playable and more fun than playing from the fairway. And chipping? Forget it. Because the lies are so tight they pull out a hybrid or fairway metal. It's crazy. I ask these people if they enjoy these conditions and they invariably say "no, not really." And they are paying lots of money for the privilege.


A few years ago a superintendent from a Top 100 club in the Metropolitan NY section said the following in an interview with MET Golfer magazine:
"It's amazing how much more fun the game would be and how much less expensive if you just raise the height of the mower."
So true

THIS


To the topic of fairway woods.
For the first time when in Ireland this past September, I found my 3 woods virtually useless out of dewey , light rough seemingly benign lies(we had no wind and condensation was usually visible on the ball)When I would attempt to hit a cut shot the ball just immediately fell out out of the sky due to the low spin of a modern 3 wood and moisture beads on the ball)
I'm seriously thinking about putting my 3 wood shaft in the 5 wood from the same set-and using it as a 3 wood(I currently use a 1998 Steelhead 5 wood because it spins far more and is predictable out of the rough-and goes proper 5 wood distance and trajectory)

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