[Thomas Dai]

One aspect that I appreciated was the level and mowed walking paths around Ballybunion. I don't recall a course that put that much emphasis on the walking paths and it made for a much more pleasant walk and enjoyable day golfing. Big difference between there and Whistling Straits as it was in the first years of it's existence. Turning an ankle or worse was common there due to the uneven natural dirt walking path golfers would wear down naturally.
Another nice aspect of the Ballybunion paths is they are wide enough to allow you to walk side by side, to enjoy the company of another playing partner.  Overall a nice enhancement IMO. Not sure of the cost for maintenance, which I'm sure could be a concern.

Rye grass, irrigated, expensive. A bit too clean for my liking.

+1
Bit like having gold taps …. £$€.
Atb

[John Kirk]

Not at all. I only remember fun discussions with you.


Of courses I have seen I am thinking more along the lines of Torrey South.

Thanks.  I may have overstated my concern.  I'm fine.  Like many aging veterans here, I was quicker to criticize as a younger member of the club.  My discerning eye is as sharp as ever, but I've learned better ways to express my opinions.

[Tom_Doak]

Ben:


Good topic, thank you for starting it.i looked at a site the other day that had a lot of cool features for golf holes, but my first instinct was that it was too severe to yield a walkable golf course.  I have yet to build an unwalkable golf course.  Yeah, Stone Eagle is unwalkable when it’s 100 degrees, but I have played several rounds there on foot, once in the company of three 70-year-olds.


Also, to this day, no course ranked in the top 200 in the world is unwalkable.  I don’t preclude the possibility- and my mind is open to building 18 holes that are too severe to walk, if that’s all the land will give you.  But I do think it says something meaningful that the rafters of the world have drawn that line in the sand.


I did walk the routing for Landmand last summer, and I thought it was not impossible to walk, albeit without a bag on my shoulder.  But I do think the difficulty of the walk (especially the 17th) might hold it back s but in the rankings.  Rob may say he doesn’t care about that, but I’m guessing he does.


I have, over the years, put more and more emphasis on shorter green to tee walks.  One prominent example was moving the fifth green at Ballyneal and making the tee shot on the sixth blind, instead of putting the green at the base of the dune to the left and the tee up top, as I had first planned.

[Ben Sims]

Tom,


Thanks for the reply.


Like baseball, there are unwritten rules here at GCA. Don’t be the one who posts on the multiple of 25 (i.e., the last post of each page), don’t post during the Ren Cup (many of our key contributors are understandably distracted), don’t criticize the walking aspect of the game. I seem to have broken a few with this thread. As Meatloaf said, “two out of three ain’t bad.”


I am using this thread to investigate and change my own mind about certain aspects of golf architecture I once held sacred. Using one of your courses as an example, I have yet to experience #7 at Stone Eagle as you intended. My one play there, I teed off from the front of the 6th green. The walk up to the next tee was just too unnecessary at the time even for a young guy like me.  I still haven’t ever teed off from the upper tee on 6 or the “Mackenzie” tee on 13 at Ballyneal, even after a couple dozen rounds there. 


And honestly, I’m sort of mad at myself for not having done so. Is the walk up and back such a bad thing? Once I’d tasted the fruit of ultra-short green to tee transitions, I felt obligated to use that as the standard for what the walk should be, often ignoring the obvious result of a better golf hole with a bit more walking effort. Add that to the fact that we almost never talk about how severe some walks are on a hole itself. The walk up the 16th fairway at Bandon Trails is objectively steep. The first time I walked 10 at ANGC I wondered if the local kids could be taught to ski there in the freak once-every-two-decades snow storm in Augusta.


All that to say, this is an exploratory thread for me. Trying to find a better answer than “it depends” when it comes to the walking aspect of golf is my goal. Enjoying so far.

[Jim Sherma]

Some thoughts on this:

Long green to tee walks spoil a course more than anything else when it comes to the walk. This is especially true when they are the result of housing being built intermingled with the routing. While I don't like them any better courses spread across disjointed parcels of land can also spoil the walk by adding non-golfing distance.

Many walk-backs are annoying, but the better ones are where you can leave your bag by the green or tee and at least eliminate the extra carrying distance. Sometimes, for the sake of variety and challenge, older courses simply do need more yardage given modern equipment and there is nowhere else to get it.

Ideally you would always have the next tee close to the preceding green. An uphill partially blind drive that follows the natural terrain is generally preferred to an uphill walk to the tee box in order to get a downhill drive. This is likely antithetical to the instagramification of architecture however.

I am much more forgiving of a tough stretches of steepness if it is part of a hole as opposed to a transition between holes. I also think it should be early in the round as opposed to later - like a lot of the old hill-top courses that Sean A has written up.

Walking paths that eliminate the long walks around native/unmaintained areas are a good thing in and of themselves - how they are maintained is a little beside the point.

Very few unwalkable (including very difficultly walked courses as well) have made it high on my personal list. I'm sure that a lot of this has to do with selection bias of what I've played as well as living in the northeast where there are so many good old school easily walkable courses.

[Ira Fishman]

It is a good thread that has made me think. I far prefer to walk a course, but I have almost a religious aversion to hiking. Indeed, golf is the only time I am outdoors in a non-sitting posture. So why then do I prefer to walk when playing if walking inherently holds no appeal for me? It seems to come down to enjoying the sport/game itself more. Even when playing fast, the pacing is more even and more natural. So although I think walking enables me to appreciate the architecture more, I do not find the quality of the walk necessarily tied to my view of the quality of the architecture--and sometimes just the opposite. I never thought of Pasatiempo as a tough walk until someone made the point here. Same for Ballyneal. The courses are just so good that the nature of the walk did not enter into my mind. I think that the one exception might be the hike to 14 at Bandon Trails where we hopped a ride up. Then again, the ride was worth it.


Ira

[Sean_A]

Some thoughts on this:

Long green to tee walks spoil a course more than anything else when it comes to the walk. This is especially true when they are the result of housing being built intermingled with the routing. While I don't like them any better courses spread across disjointed parcels of land can also spoil the walk by adding non-golfing distance.

Many walk-backs are annoying, but the better ones are where you can leave your bag by the green or tee and at least eliminate the extra carrying distance. Sometimes, for the sake of variety and challenge, older courses simply do need more yardage given modern equipment and there is nowhere else to get it.

Ideally you would always have the next tee close to the preceding green. An uphill partially blind drive that follows the natural terrain is generally preferred to an uphill walk to the tee box in order to get a downhill drive. This is likely antithetical to the instagramification of architecture however.

I am much more forgiving of a tough stretches of steepness if it is part of a hole as opposed to a transition between holes. I also think it should be early in the round as opposed to later - like a lot of the old hill-top courses that Sean A has written up.

Walking paths that eliminate the long walks around native/unmaintained areas are a good thing in and of themselves - how they are maintained is a little beside the point.

Very few unwalkable (including very difficultly walked courses as well) have made it high on my personal list. I'm sure that a lot of this has to do with selection bias of what I've played as well as living in the northeast where there are so many good old school easily walkable courses.

Jim

As you likely know, I am a big fan of hilltop courses because I know gravity golf, wind and views will feature heavily. So I am not adverse to a harder walk if I am properly rewarded. To me, walking a distance from the previous green is rarely the better choice of tee. One thing I will say, Kington is my favourite course in part because the walk is managed incredibly well. I realise that this specific hill combined with the great skills of Hutchison meld beautifully to give this great walk in an area in which this would seem unlikely. It's the real difference between it and Cleeve Cloud. Cleeve takes you up and down throughout the round and in my mind is a much tougher walk.Kington rises early and takes you home downhill.

Ciao

[Mark_Fine]

What is “walkable” to some is impossible to walk for others.  I just played a “walkable” old Perry Maxwell design called Old Town Club. 45% of the members walk.  I am not sure what % of the other members could walk if they so choose but I don’t think Ben would like it as the elevation changes are huge and constant.  We walked it with trolleys and my colleague with a bum knee paid the price but the course is so darn good he decided to grin and bear it and managed to get around (no carts available on Monday).  I also mentioned on another thread I just played Tobacco Road.  Such an amazing track but good luck walking that one.  The ups and downs are dramatic and the transitions between holes can he hundreds of yards.  I am sure someone can walk it just like The Plantation Course at Kapalua but even the pros get a cart rides when the PGA tournament is played there. What were these architects thinking when they designed these courses 

[Jeff Schley]

I am sure someone can walk it just like The Plantation Course at Kapalua but even the pros get a cart rides when the PGA tournament is played there. What were these architects thinking when they designed these courses 

What?  Is this for real true?  I always respected the players who showed up for the kickoff event as although it was a guaranteed pay day, thought they earned it just by walking that place all week.

[Ben Sims]

What is “walkable” to some is impossible to walk for others.  I just played a “walkable” old Perry Maxwell design called Old Town Club. 45% of the members walk.  I am not sure what % of the other members could walk if they so choose but I don’t think Ben would like it as the elevation changes are huge and constant.  We walked it with trolleys and my colleague with a bum knee paid the price but the course is so darn good he decided to grin and bear it and managed to get around (no carts available on Monday).  I also mentioned on another thread I just played Tobacco Road.  Such an amazing track but good luck walking that one.  The ups and downs are dramatic and the transitions between holes can he hundreds of yards.  I am sure someone can walk it just like The Plantation Course at Kapalua but even the pros get a cart rides when the PGA tournament is played there. What were these architects thinking when they designed these courses 

Mark,

Please forgive me, but I find this post to be a terrific synopsis of my point. A quick anecdote…

I spent quite a bit of time this past September hiking off trail in places that make Winston-Salem look like a parking lot. It was a barrel of fun. Why? Cause there were bulls bugling at us, terrific scenery, and a general vibe that we were accomplishing something whilst in the pursuit of quarry.

My evolving argument here is that golf is extremely similar. I think we are all willing to endure more hardship if the golf is good enough. I don’t hear many complain about the 3-4 transition at Pasatiempo. The 30ft gain and 50+ft loss (vertically) to only hit ONE shot when walking from 14 green to 15 fairway at Friars Head is an minor inconvenience for the discovery and grandeur of that particular area of the course. The walk at Kapalua Plantation sucks. And I’d do it again without much complaint.

The point is, it’s all about the golf when it comes down to it. The quality of the hike/walk is of secondary, at best, concern. The point of the walk is golf, not vice-versa. I hope this thread will further illuminate the varying views on the intersection of golf and walking.

[Peter Pallotta]

For me the worst and most unacceptable form of 'long, roundabout walks' are the ones architects force me to make just for the sake of an elevated tee box, with its 'stunning views' and the 'long soaring drives' a foursome of aging hacks manage to hit from up there. I used to think this was a Nicklaus 'signature', especially at courses with six sets of tees in warm sunny places with spas attached to the luxury hotels. But sadly, from what I read, it seems that just about every architect has become enamoured of the technique now, and the six sets of tees, and even at the kind of new golf courses that Ran and GOLF Magazine give awards to every year. I don't want to call it the victory of predictable populist pandering over stylish strategic sophistication, but I suppose it *is* the victory of predictable populist pandering over stylish strategic sophistication. And I suppose that's because there's a lot more money to be made that way, if it's packaged and sold correctly, by the right people. (And meanwhile, I see, Walton Heath Old has fallen out of the Top 100 World list, and The Loop remains Tom D's least talked about or praised course in the last 15 years.)
Peter

Edit: Sorry, I'm not sure any of that is at all 'on point'.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Completely on point, Peter.


And yes, incredibly sad to see Walton Heath drop out of the Top 100 to be trumped by yet another celebrated renovation in the guise of restoration.


Bottom line (for me) - the art of routing is at least 50% about making a site the best walk possible.

[Sean_A]

What is “walkable” to some is impossible to walk for others.  I just played a “walkable” old Perry Maxwell design called Old Town Club. 45% of the members walk.  I am not sure what % of the other members could walk if they so choose but I don’t think Ben would like it as the elevation changes are huge and constant.  We walked it with trolleys and my colleague with a bum knee paid the price but the course is so darn good he decided to grin and bear it and managed to get around (no carts available on Monday).  I also mentioned on another thread I just played Tobacco Road.  Such an amazing track but good luck walking that one.  The ups and downs are dramatic and the transitions between holes can he hundreds of yards.  I am sure someone can walk it just like The Plantation Course at Kapalua but even the pros get a cart rides when the PGA tournament is played there. What were these architects thinking when they designed these courses 

Mark,

Please forgive me, but I find this post to be a terrific synopsis of my point. A quick anecdote…

I spent quite a bit of time this past September hiking off trail in places that make Winston-Salem look like a parking lot. It was a barrel of fun. Why? Cause there were bulls bugling at us, terrific scenery, and a general vibe that we were accomplishing something whilst in the pursuit of quarry.

My evolving argument here is that golf is extremely similar. I think we are all willing to endure more hardship if the golf is good enough. I don’t hear many complain about the 3-4 transition at Pasatiempo. The 30ft gain and 50+ft loss (vertically) to only hit ONE shot when walking from 14 green to 15 fairway at Friars Head is an minor inconvenience for the discovery and grandeur of that particular area of the course. The walk at Kapalua Plantation sucks. And I’d do it again without much complaint.

The point is, it’s all about the golf when it comes down to it. The quality of the hike/walk is of secondary, at best, concern. The point of the walk is golf, not vice-versa. I hope this thread will further illuminate the varying views on the intersection of golf and walking.

If an archie makes a course all about the golf the odds are that less people will walk it. Unnecessary cart usage can't be something archies want...could it?  I would have thought the opposite was hopefully true. Make a course walkable and more people will enjoy the benefits of walking.

Ciao

[Mark_Fine]

No architect wants to or sets out to make a course unwalkable.  But sometimes that is what they are dealt with on the site given.  And no question some are better at routing then others but who knows. 


My point about the few courses I mentioned was that they are very difficult walks.  They can be done but few could make those walks every day or would want to.  Like them or not, carts do allow millions of people to play a game (every day if they want) that they might not otherwise be able to do if they had to walk.

[Jim Sherma]

Sometimes you see a routing that surprises you in how good a walk it is given the land it sits upon. Harrisburg CC is a good example of this. The original routing was by Flynn and the corridors are still used even though not much Flynn detail is left on the ground. The way the course slides around the steeper parts of the property make for a pleasant walk. The property is severe enough that most people find it surprising that I've walked the course a few times, and even more surprising when I tell them that it's not a tough walk at all.

[MCirba]

Jim Sherma,


Flynn was sort of the master of routing a walkable course on a hilly site, wasn't he?  Mark Fine would likely agree, as well, given Lehigh.   

[John Kavanaugh]

So we have learned from this thread that the adrenaline rush from playing highly anticipated courses artificially results in the walk appearing easier.  I can't argue that close to 100% of my walking rounds now occur when I have a pep in my step. Everyday walk vs Vacation walk.


I'm not certain that this is a phenomenon associated with age but I rarely feel "light on my feet" near as often as I would like. A great course three rivers from home practically causes me to float over the landscape.

[Kalen Braley]

It would seem as with nearly everything else in life, its about finding balance.

A crap course with little interest yet very short green to tee walks is no more interesting than an unwalkable cart ball course with 18 'signature' holes.

P.S.  Jeff the last place guy still got nearly 40k just for showing up in Hawaii last year.  I have far more respect for the guy who rolls out of bed at 4 am in the morning for a crap paying job so you can have your morning cup of joe and bagel in the morning.

[Ben Sims]

Sean and Mark,


Let’s not set up the “unwalkable” strawman just yet. There are many permutations of difficulty between a pan flat course with tee boxes adjacent to greens and the opposite end of the spectrum.


Before my own thoughts stated evolving by reading responses on this thread, my original premise was sort of to get where John Kavanaugh got in his last post. Whitten’s comments on Landmand had my mind going in that direction. As I’ve eluded to, I think people are more than happy to falsely identify a course as a “good walk” when the golf is terrific. There are dozens of examples of this that are far from unwalkable.

[Mark_Fine]

Mike C,
Yes Flynn was excellent at finding routings that made for a walkable design and Lehigh is one of them.  But still it is a severe site and a tough walk for many.  Is still walk but only when I have a caddie. 

[Sean_A]

Sean and Mark,

Let’s not set up the “unwalkable” strawman just yet. There are many permutations of difficulty between a pan flat course with tee boxes adjacent to greens and the opposite end of the spectrum.

Before my own thoughts stated evolving by reading responses on this thread, my original premise was sort of to get where John Kavanaugh got in his last post. Whitten’s comments on Landmand had my mind going in that direction. As I’ve eluded to, I think people are more than happy to falsely identify a course as a “good walk” when the golf is terrific. There are dozens of examples of this that are far from unwalkable.

Ben

Perhaps you are right, I don't know. I am quite happy to say a course can be good, but the walk not so much. Tobacco Road is a case in point...same for Roaring Gap. I played Royston this summer. It has a lot of good stuff, but I wouldn't play it again because of the harsh walk. If I ever play JCB again it will be in a cart. The golf is compelling, but the long green to tee walks are too disruptive and add quite a bit of time to the round. It's walkable, but detracts from the quality of the experience.

Ciao

[Ira Fishman]

So we have learned from this thread that the adrenaline rush from playing highly anticipated courses artificially results in the walk appearing easier.  I can't argue that close to 100% of my walking rounds now occur when I have a pep in my step. Everyday walk vs Vacation walk.


I'm not certain that this is a phenomenon associated with age but I rarely feel "light on my feet" near as often as I would like. A great course three rivers from home practically causes me to float over the landscape.

Yes, but anticipation can work both ways. Despite the beauty and variety of the walks, Castle Stuart and Kingsbarns did not strike me as great. And I found Kapalua Plantation a slog...and we were in carts.


Ira

[V_Halyard]

Great post. To me, (personally) I love to walk and the best routings present themselves in a manner akin to a well constructed music composition, with crescendos, peaks, valleys and dramatic finishes. I very much appreciate visual reveals as well as contrasts that add value to my walk. Little things are of interest as well as the large. Subtle and unexpected is appreciated.
The small ravine at the 2nd and 3rd holes of Houston's Memorial park is unexpected and a hint of more good things to come.
Another example, I would love for one of my favorite courses to revert their nines to their original order. The swapped /original finish of their front nine, originally architected as the back, delivers a spectacular sphincter clinching a deescalating drama for all players, Match/Stroke/Recreational. The course is still outstanding and the current configuration is a "great" walk nonetheless.

On the pet peeve side, I share the disdain for cart expected long ferries from green to the next tee. The back track from a green to the next tee is also a vibe killer. it illicit a "Damn, I was just here..." gag reflex.

[Stewart Abramson]

Larry David, an avid golfer and GCA aficionado , explains that a good walk can't be a purposeless walk.

What Kind of Walk Do You Really Want    (Watch for 30 seconds)

[Peter Pallotta]

Larry David, an avid golfer and GCA aficionado , explains that a good walk can't be a purposeless walk.
What Kind of Walk Do You Really Want    (Watch for 30 seconds)

Perfect!!

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