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Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Fake creeks in the desert
« on: October 16, 2021, 06:00:16 PM »
Given the very serious drought conditions being endured in a neighbouring State, have we reached a position of unsustainability in golf course construction and maintenance in the Nevada desert yet?
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Fake creeks in the desert
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2021, 06:13:03 PM »
Like ski slopes in Texas and ocean liners in Nebraska, nothing says golf quite like ribbons of green in the Nevada desert.

Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fake creeks in the desert
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2021, 06:27:24 PM »
Though totally artificial, they are using reclaimed water.at pretty much every course in Vegas

John Emerson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fake creeks in the desert
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2021, 08:40:16 PM »
Unsustainability was reached the moment golf was was brought to the desert decades ago.
“There’s links golf, then everything else.”

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fake creeks in the desert
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2021, 07:22:46 AM »
Unsustainability was reached the moment golf was was brought to the desert decades ago.


...and yet golf has managed to sustain itself in the desert ever since.


Niall

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Fake creeks in the desert
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2021, 09:00:41 AM »
Given the very serious drought conditions being endured in a neighbouring State, have we reached a position of unsustainability in golf course construction and maintenance in the Nevada desert yet?
F.


Marty:


I faced this dilemma when building Stone Eagle.  The clients were adamant that we should have some water features in the [natural] ravines running down through the property.  I talked them down to a single pond for irrigation storage, and a creek running into it, which is the outlet for the water pumped from the base of the hill.


Over the course of that discussion, I tried to determine why they all wanted this so much.  Partly, it was just a matter of wanting what you don't have.  But the other factor was that nearly all of the homes of wealthy people out there have some sort of water feature to cool down the backyard space, so they have come to expect it as a calming and cooling element, even though you're not going to get close enough to it while playing golf to get much cooling effect.  [Certainly not the little stream we built down in the canyon, anyway.]

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fake creeks in the desert
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2021, 10:05:40 AM »
Lest we forget that golf in the desert was once played with oiled and hand raked putting surfaces and small pieces of mat to hit shots from. No carts either.
In some places it likely still is.

Atb

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fake creeks in the desert
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2021, 10:12:05 AM »
 8)  More than drought in neighboring state, Vegas is right in the thick of it!


How long will Ski Dubai last, till it costs too much, for whom? 
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fake creeks in the desert
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2021, 12:33:46 PM »
I have done exactly two streams, one in Kansas which was shut off for cost reasons, and one in LV, where I just checked Google Earth, and it appears that it is still running.  It probably helps that it is part of the lake fill system connecting the water source to the irrigation pond, acts as a biofilter, and that as effluent water, no one cares if it evaporates.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fake creeks in the desert
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2021, 12:52:07 PM »
2025 will be a big year for the Colorado River Compact:




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_River_Compact
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fake creeks in the desert
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2021, 01:32:11 PM »
I have done exactly two streams, one in Kansas which was shut off for cost reasons, and one in LV, where I just checked Google Earth, and it appears that it is still running.  It probably helps that it is part of the lake fill system connecting the water source to the irrigation pond, acts as a biofilter, and that as effluent water, no one cares if it evaporates.


No one cares, except for the ecosystem.
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

John Emerson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fake creeks in the desert
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2021, 06:24:16 PM »
Unsustainability was reached the moment golf was was brought to the desert decades ago.


...and yet golf has managed to sustain itself in the desert ever since.


Niall


It is holding on for dear life.  Tic-toc, tic-toc….it’s only a matter of time.  Golf in the desert is not in any way, shape, or form sustainable.  It will be a flash in the pan in golf history.  I’m sure when I’m old as dirt I’ll look back and say “man was that a bad idea!”.
“There’s links golf, then everything else.”

Ben Malach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fake creeks in the desert
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2021, 08:08:51 PM »
Having spent the summer in the desert. I would say I found the golf very interesting as a majority of it fights the landscape unlike any other form of golf I have seen. The best work embraces the unique aspects of the environment and uses it to it's advantage. The worst work makes you feel like your in Disneyland which is not my type of fun and probably won't last as water budgets are getting tighter. So there goes the creeks and ponds beside 9 and 18 green.




The hard thing for me to understand is why was more strategic golf not built there. As it's one of the few places that functions almost as a blank slate due to the general lack of topography in most places and the fact that you can control where grass grows very effectively. This means it's a perfect lab to toss out cool holes that are pure defined by hazards. it's just a thought but I think with turf reduction some course could get better rather than worse.
@benmalach on Instagram and Twitter

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Fake creeks in the desert
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2021, 11:06:28 AM »
Having spent the summer in the desert. I would say I found the golf very interesting as a majority of it fights the landscape unlike any other form of golf I have seen. The best work embraces the unique aspects of the environment and uses it to it's advantage. The worst work makes you feel like your in Disneyland which is not my type of fun and probably won't last as water budgets are getting tighter. So there goes the creeks and ponds beside 9 and 18 green.

The hard thing for me to understand is why was more strategic golf not built there. As it's one of the few places that functions almost as a blank slate due to the general lack of topography in most places and the fact that you can control where grass grows very effectively. This means it's a perfect lab to toss out cool holes that are pure defined by hazards. it's just a thought but I think with turf reduction some course could get better rather than worse.


Ben:


If you are talking about using the desert as a strategic hazard, that's very hard to do; hitting out of d.g. and cactus all the time is not very fun.  Most desert courses are built pretty wide because people are going there after two months without swinging a club, and they need a lot of grass in which to land their ball.

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fake creeks in the desert
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2021, 11:20:54 AM »
Having spent the summer in the desert. I would say I found the golf very interesting as a majority of it fights the landscape unlike any other form of golf I have seen. The best work embraces the unique aspects of the environment and uses it to it's advantage. The worst work makes you feel like your in Disneyland which is not my type of fun and probably won't last as water budgets are getting tighter. So there goes the creeks and ponds beside 9 and 18 green.

The hard thing for me to understand is why was more strategic golf not built there. As it's one of the few places that functions almost as a blank slate due to the general lack of topography in most places and the fact that you can control where grass grows very effectively. This means it's a perfect lab to toss out cool holes that are pure defined by hazards. it's just a thought but I think with turf reduction some course could get better rather than worse.


Ben:


If you are talking about using the desert as a strategic hazard, that's very hard to do; hitting out of d.g. and cactus all the time is not very fun.  Most desert courses are built pretty wide because people are going there after two months without swinging a club, and they need a lot of grass in which to land their ball.


There’s also a big difference between interesting/pretty desert with elevation changes and vegetation, like you see at a lot of the Scottsdale courses; and dead flat featureless sand, which you see around Palm Springs. It’s hard to engage with dead flat featureless sand. I assume that’s a big reason that you don’t see desert style courses around Palm Springs except for the few that abut the mountains (Stone Eagle, Terra Lago, SilverRock, etc.) and have more interesting terrain.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fake creeks in the desert
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2021, 11:22:49 AM »
Unsustainability was reached the moment golf was was brought to the desert decades ago.


...and yet golf has managed to sustain itself in the desert ever since.


Niall


It is holding on for dear life.  Tic-toc, tic-toc….it’s only a matter of time.  Golf in the desert is not in any way, shape, or form sustainable.  It will be a flash in the pan in golf history.  I’m sure when I’m old as dirt I’ll look back and say “man was that a bad idea!”.

John

I'm sure you take my point that if it was unsustainable decades ago then it would have ceased to exist then, or soon after. The fact that it hasn't and indeed has expanded points to it having been sustainable. Going forward might be another matter which is the question FBD was asking. FWIW I tend to think that when push comes to shove "they" will find a way provided there is enough of a local population to pay the bills. After all, decades ago we didn't have concrete liners (or did we ?) and eco-bunkers. If there is enough money and enough will I tend to think a solution will be found although the solution might not get the Melvin Morrow Award for natural golf course design and maintenance.   ;D

Niall

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Fake creeks in the desert
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2021, 11:51:24 AM »
Niall:


There are two different definitions of "sustainable" being compared here:  yours [will it survive?] vs John's [should it survive?].


For sure, there is a huge population and a lot of disposable income between Arizona and Palm Springs that won't accept John's definition until they have to.  If there is ever a rush to the exits, it's going to be a huge crash.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fake creeks in the desert
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2021, 12:08:24 PM »
Niall:

There are two different definitions of "sustainable" being compared here:  yours [will it survive?] vs John's [should it survive?].



And then there's a 3rd type that commonly prevails here in Utah.  Its a completely fabricated and over-blown issue that is to be disregarded and dismissed.  Sadly the only thing that will likely prompt meaningful change here is larger communities running out of water with ensuing crisis (its already happened in smaller rural towns, and lots of individual single-owner wells)




Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fake creeks in the desert
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2021, 01:21:18 PM »
Worth noting is that in the last few decades or so called ‘desert courses’ have sprung up all over the globe even in places where the thought of golf on grass had likely never even been previously dreamed of.

Europe, the Near East, the Middle East, Aus and Africa have them too. Not all of them are resort based. And the terrain, type of sand, basis of play etc can be very different.
Just saying.
Atb

Dan Smoot

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fake creeks in the desert
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2021, 01:24:36 PM »
Lest we forget that golf in the desert was once played with oiled and hand raked putting surfaces and small pieces of mat to hit shots from. No carts either.
In some places it likely still is.

Atb


I thought that scene was out in western Kansas where you hoped the cattle weren't crowded around the water hazard (tank)

astavrides

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fake creeks in the desert
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2021, 09:42:40 AM »
Though totally artificial, they are using reclaimed water.at pretty much every course in Vegas


From a water conservation standpoint, when golf courses use reclaimed water, it is preferable to using drinking water. But it isn't getting something for nothing. Wastewater would eventually end up back in Lake Mead if it weren't used on the golf courses. When it is used on golf courses, at least half of it is lost to evaporation according to the USGA (I suspect that percentage is a good bit higher in the desert).
https://www.nps.gov/lake/learn/wastewater-treatment.htm


And in places like San Diego, reclaimed water is being converted directly to drinking water.
https://www.sandiego.gov/public-utilities/sustainability/pure-water-sd
 

Gib_Papazian

Re: Fake creeks in the desert
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2021, 03:53:06 PM »
As long as there is enough fresh meat with stuffed wallets, waddling through the turnstiles, courses like Shadow Creek and Cascata will be able to afford whatever the cost to keep their prefab creeks running and fairways emerald green.


One thing that continues to strike me as an obvious, partial solution, is to let the bermuda go dormant on desert tracks . . . . . the amount of water used after overseeding the fairways has to be significant.


What? You mean the touristas will not accept dormant grass for their winter frolicking? Eventually, it will be that or squadoosh . . . . . unless the resort can get the patrons to cough up enough jing to cover the costs of constant fines from the local water district.


One of my homies and I just drove from Burlingame to Bishop, CA last weekend - picking up some antique cabinet for Her Redness. Mono Lake looks shrunk down and every reservoir we passed was down alarming levels - and all the weather geniuses say we are in for yet another drought winter.


I got news for everybody . . . . the shit has already hit the fan - and the wild 2017 rain we had that collapsed Oroville Dam is just a preview of an inevitable feast to famine water situation.


Notice also, our disgusting, feckless, loser politicians are still approving gigantic residential developments with both hands (since they are all paid off, but pretend it is to alleviate the "housing shortage"), so the practical water needs of golf courses will be the first to get slashed . . . . .


In other words, the effluent water running through el fako streams in Palm Desert, Rancho Mirage etc etc are not even a drop in the bucket - particularly because that water is usually on a circular pump system that does not really use much potable agua.


But since the Western U.S. is likely headed for economic collapse and water restrictions that will unravel all these ill-conceived housing and golf developments, TD is right - once the lemmings sprint for the exits, it will make the 2008 crash look like a Great Gatsby garden party . . . . .


The answer MIGHT be artificial grass golf courses. Why not? Plastic (petroleum based?) grass would be a one-time event (with regular upkeep), but except for the recycled waterscapes, ongoing irrigation costs would be extremely minimal. Drastically truncated maintenance costs might translate into a renaissance of golf being affordable again out here.


Yeah, you'd have to amortize the fako materials over a course of years, but compared to getting shellacked every month with breathtakingly expensive water, not too bad. Even if they use 100% recycled affluent water, you still have to process and pump it from treatment plants.


In other words, radical problems suggest radical solutions. It is not practical to simply let all these housing related courses go fallow - and since covid and working from home seems here to stay - the demand for recreational golf is not going away . . . . boom or no boom.


The genie long ago vacated the bottle, so we have to arrive at a sane, sustainable solution to keep the pellets flying. Certainly, putting an end to overseeding would help - dormant bermuda plays like tight fescue and rolls forever - but unless somebody figures out how to make a desalination plant economically viable and sustainable, everybody west of the Mississippi is going to find themselves stuck like a pig.   


   






   


   


 


 
 
« Last Edit: October 19, 2021, 08:19:13 PM by Gib Papazian »

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fake creeks in the desert
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2021, 04:08:20 PM »
We just grassed the teeing area of one of our 2 ranges with a new Bermuda grass that needs less water  and a few local  clubs/courses in the Phoenix area have grassed fairways:


Read all about it....



https://tiftufbermudagrass.com/


We will evaluate next summer.


« Last Edit: October 19, 2021, 04:10:51 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fake creeks in the desert
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2021, 04:23:55 PM »
In general, I'm in favour of abandoning overseeding. But its efficacy does depend on just how much winter golf a course hosts. It is in the nature of dormant grass that it isn't growing. Put thousands of rounds across a course that isn't growing and conditions are going to suffer quite a lot. Dormant bermuda at the start of the winter is a great surface, we can all agree on that. Dormant bermuda three months later is another thing entirely.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Gib_Papazian

Re: Fake creeks in the desert
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2021, 04:51:24 PM »
Adam,


We have already reached the 10th Circle of Hell with our water crisis out west, so it is really a Hobson's Choice situation.


Since the greens and tees (maybe) will be the only part of the course irrigated, if you find your ProV1 in a dormant divot, that is what "Winter Rules" are for.


This is no time for dogmatic bullshit . . . . . 


"We have had to make certain concessions for the war; we *are* three miles from the front lines." - Hawkeye Pierce

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