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Rob Marshall

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How much information should you get from the tee?
« on: September 22, 2021, 10:11:15 PM »
Another thread got me thinking about how to play a hole. When standing on the tee should the player visually be able to determine a strategy of how to play the hole or at least the tee shot? Is that too much to ask for? Can a great golf course be designed that doesn’t require multiple rounds learn how to play it?


I once complained about a good wedge shot to a front pin on the 5th hole of the Blue. Ball hit by the pin and rolled into tiger trap of a bunker left of the green I didn’t know was there. Pat Mucci, in is matter of fact way said I was an idiot since you could see the bunker from the 4th fairway. What? But I’m playing the 4th and I don’t even know where the 5th tee is……..





If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How much information should you get from the tee?
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2021, 01:49:05 AM »
No, a player shouldn't as a matter of course be able to see the strategy of a tee shot. However, except for exceptional circumstances, it would be tiresome if the player is clueless on more than a few tee shots. That said, often times golfers are given some idea of the strategy, but not the complete picture. These are often the most perplexing holes. A key to a clueless tee shot is added width. It might be a terrible place to be, but the ball can be found quickly. Not much worse than a blind tee shot where its easy to lose a ball mainly because you can't see it land.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: How much information should you get from the tee?
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2021, 02:42:47 AM »


I once complained about a good wedge shot to a front pin on the 5th hole of the Blue. Ball hit by the pin and rolled into tiger trap of a bunker left of the green I didn’t know was there. Pat Mucci, in is matter of fact way said I was an idiot since you could see the bunker from the 4th fairway. What? But I’m playing the 4th and I don’t even know where the 5th tee is……..

If you’re talking about the 5th at Streamsong Blue:

You hit a wedge at an angle where you couldn’t hold the green, and it rolled out of sight to some unknown fate?  In the example you’re giving, it would be impossible to make any hazard over the horizon of the green visible - so is it your contention there shouldn’t be anything there?  You’re lucky it wound up in a bunker and not twenty feet below the green in Cogan grass.  The bunker saved your butt. (You’re welcome.)

And, to your question:  a blind bunker in the middle of the fairway is tough.  But if you hit it past the edge of manicured grass that you can see, it’s definitely on you to understand the risks involved.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How much information should you get from the tee?
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2021, 06:09:04 AM »
The answer is 100% NO.  I have played Never played a single course that I would consider great that one wouldn’t benefit from and appreciate more if played multiple times. The greatest courses need to be studied and played many times to really be learned just how good they really are.  The less you need to play a course to “figure it out” the less interesting it is and the lower I would put it on a greatness scale.

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How much information should you get from the tee?
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2021, 06:22:27 AM »
Another thread got me thinking about how to play a hole. When standing on the tee should the player visually be able to determine a strategy of how to play the hole or at least the tee shot? Is that too much to ask for? Can a great golf course be designed that doesn’t require multiple rounds learn how to play it?


I once complained about a good wedge shot to a front pin on the 5th hole of the Blue. Ball hit by the pin and rolled into tiger trap of a bunker left of the green I didn’t know was there. Pat Mucci, in is matter of fact way said I was an idiot since you could see the bunker from the 4th fairway. What? But I’m playing the 4th and I don’t even know where the 5th tee is……..


You can still see the bunkers and the land form. You should have a sense of where you were in relation to the hole played prior, especially there since that is the second time you'd seen the fifth in your round, too.


Having a sense of the entire property IS a skill, even the first time around, even when blind. Other people have it and perhaps that is their competitive advantage over you. I am always surprised at the amount of people descending from the first tee that just go up the 18th fairway completely lost and with no sense of even basic direction. That's on them - not the architect.

Confusion and disorientation are acceptable, even welcome, feelings on the golfer's emotional palette.

Doesn't sound like it was a good wedge shot, though. Perhaps it was struck solidly, but there are acres of PRIME Polk County real estate in front of that green on which you could have landed an even better mediocre wedge shot.

A story:

When we were planting the 18th hole of Blue I was standing on the soon-to-be 18th tee of Blue chatting with the architect of the other golf course.* He asked me to describe what was going on with the tee shot and casually remarked that he wouldn't know where to hit it. The answer to your question is undoubtedly yes but it takes a Bill Coore level of talent to pull it off and even there he is prone to bite you where you least expect it... within 15 feet of the hole.

*This was the second conversation I had with him in this context, the other being on the 11th hole. The interesting contrast is that Blue #11 is just as blind to the strategy (especially in regard to the green) but the bunkering at least defines the choices to the golfer. Mr. Coore didn't make a similar comment on the 11th tee though I suspect he may feel similar on the approach to the 11th green since neither choice really grants a "view" of the approach unless you were paying attention (or had a great caddy point it out) on the 8th green.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2021, 06:29:24 AM by Kyle Harris »
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How much information should you get from the tee?
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2021, 06:48:19 AM »
Just put up one of those big stone monuments on each tee with layout of the hole and yardages chiseled in! ;D 

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How much information should you get from the tee?
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2021, 08:41:27 AM »


I once complained about a good wedge shot to a front pin on the 5th hole of the Blue. Ball hit by the pin and rolled into tiger trap of a bunker left of the green I didn’t know was there. Pat Mucci, in is matter of fact way said I was an idiot since you could see the bunker from the 4th fairway. What? But I’m playing the 4th and I don’t even know where the 5th tee is……..

If you’re talking about the 5th at Streamsong Blue:

You hit a wedge at an angle where you couldn’t hold the green, and it rolled out of sight to some unknown fate?  In the example you’re giving, it would be impossible to make any hazard over the horizon of the green visible - so is it your contention there shouldn’t be anything there?  You’re lucky it wound up in a bunker and not twenty feet below the green in Cogan grass.  The bunker saved your butt. (You’re welcome.)

And, to your question:  a blind bunker in the middle of the fairway is tough.  But if you hit it past the edge of manicured grass that you can see, it’s definitely on you to understand the risks involved.


Tom, My example of the 5th at the Blue was to point out Pat Mucci's advice that you should be looking at other holes to pick things up that would help you play the holes ahead. The unfortunate thing about playing a golf course when you are traveling is that you may only get one shot at it. I haven't been back to the Blue since my one round but I've read numerous times here how undulating the greens are. I had no problem with the greens when I played and they didn't strike me as being severe. That said, I think I was probably playing on a day where the pins were not in very difficult locations or I was just getting lucky on my approaches. I tend to focus way to much on my score and in doing so I think I miss out on what is around me. Which is exactly what Pat was trying to tell me. Oh and I was at least ten feet below the surface of the green in that bunker ;)
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How much information should you get from the tee?
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2021, 08:49:41 AM »
"Having a sense of the entire property IS a skill, even the first time around, even when blind. Other people have it and perhaps that is their competitive advantage over you. I am always surprised at the amount of people descending from the first tee that just go up the 18th fairway completely lost and with no sense of even basic direction. That's on them - not the architect."



I think that was Pat's bluntly put point. Thanks for the reply's gentleman. Something I need to work on.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2021, 09:44:10 AM by Rob Marshall »
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How much information should you get from the tee?
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2021, 09:17:16 AM »
When you drive a car along the road and come to a bend that you cannot see around do you slow down and approach it with more care or do you proceed at the same speed?
Atb

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How much information should you get from the tee?
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2021, 02:48:34 PM »
No, a player shouldn't as a matter of course be able to see the strategy of a tee shot. However, except for exceptional circumstances, it would be tiresome if the player is clueless on more than a few tee shots. That said, often times golfers are given some idea of the strategy, but not the complete picture. These are often the most perplexing holes. A key to a clueless tee shot is added width. It might be a terrible place to be, but the ball can be found quickly. Not much worse than a blind tee shot where its easy to lose a ball mainly because you can't see it land.

Ciao


Sean,


I agree with you here.  A few times per round is an interesting design feature, but an endless string of hard to read holes diminishes the enjoyment quite a bit.


Again, referring to the old pro mentality (epitomized by the ever eloquent Jim Colbert) "The hole ought to lay out in front of me like a roadmap!" It would be interesting to hear if today's pros are just as adamant, but I bet it's close.  If you think of yourself as a strategic player, you want to know all the info you can before deciding on a shot, no?  Sort of like a general before an invasion, you don't want to go in blind. 


I was influenced by one Pete Dye hole, where he was forced into a blind tee shot, but marked the basic line with a nice saddle in the fw at the crest of the hill to indicate line.  And, as mentioned, the fw was really wide, but as a golfer, you did have to know where you wanted to play it, including which general side had an advantage.


"Clueless" is always uncomfortable, and sometimes unsafe, as in cresting a hill and your partner saying, "This is my Titleist, I thnk that is your Maxfli under the dead guy over there!" :o


I agree that course reading may be more suitable for private clubs with repeat play, and less suitable for public and resort courses where you have a high number of infrequent or first time players, not to mention, probably a bit less savvy on thinking your way around the course, so it varies.  For most courses, it is always "safer" in design to provide full visibility.


Now, that is not to say that you can't try to fool golfers a bit, as in having three holes in a row with target bunkers off the tee, with the fourth looking the same, but in reality, you want to aim anywhere but there for the best line, etc.  But, if they look closely, they should be able to tell the fw contours on that line are unfavorable, or closer to natives, etc.


And, as TD mentions, golfers never seem to mind a pleasant surprise, as in skulling one over the green only to find a blind bunker has saved them from going down a cliff.  Unpleasant surprises are less well received. ::)


It would be interesting, again, to hear what Tom D thinks that Brooks Keopka would say about purposely hiding the strategy of a hole?  It might change over time, and over a generation of golfers.  On the am side, I bet there aren't a lot of folks outside the golf architecture nerd community who feel hiding the hole's light under a bushel is a great thing.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How much information should you get from the tee?
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2021, 07:30:55 PM »
I understand the challenge if one is playing only one round. However, I have never been at a resort course or GB&I course that allows non-members to play that did not have a course guide that cost $10 or less. On pure privates, either one’s host can give you guidance or you can fire up your mobile phone app (not that I actually use one) or look at Google Earth or Provisualizer before the round.  I guess my point is that if an architect has a good reason to “hide” some information, there are still plenty of ways to discover it. Which I actually wish were not necessarily the case.


Ira





Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How much information should you get from the tee?
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2021, 08:01:34 PM »
I don't think it's a matter of "hiding" something off the tee. On the second play around, or even before if you are observant, you can see what the hole does. The most interesting holes are even after you see it, it still takes time to figure it out.


This is why I love Pinehurst #2 so much. Essentially, all the information is there for you.


For example, on the first hole it's easy to hit your drive right and play up the length of the green. It also seems safe to miss the green right because there's no bunker, it's basically flat and you can run the ball on the green.


After many plays, I realized the better play was to go down the left side of the fairway. Now, the second shot is into the upslope of the green to help stop it. And, missing in the bunker left was better because the bunker shot is also into the upslope. If you miss the green right there is about a foot of elevation change up to the green and then downhill. It looks easy, but it is a really hard shot for me.


Perhaps, I'm really slow, but it took me a long time to figure all of this out. Often times on #2, I found it is better to short side myself. It all depends on the hole location and where it is in relation to slopes.

Peter Pallotta

Re: How much information should you get from the tee?
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2021, 08:05:31 PM »
If great courses really do need to be played many times before we can realize how great they are, how do you explain all the award-winning new courses over the last 20 years that have debuted high on the Top 100 lists soon after (or even immediately upon) their opening -- with raters having only one or two chances to play them before casting their ballots?

[Btw: Did it take the golfers of the day a long time/many plays to deem Pine Valley great? Was the high praise for NGLA before it even opened more muted than it would've been if all the experts had played it multiple times first?]

No, that's just another piece of tired conventional wisdom and bland consensus opinion. So too is the notion that it's hard to figure out a great golf hole from the tee, and that much needs to be hidden/subtle for the hole to be great. The greatness of a golf hole doesn't lie in/depend on obfuscation or complexity or even hidden subtlety. The truth is simpler (and yet more mysterious) than any of that; greatness just *is*.

The greatest Par 5 I've ever played is the 8th at Crystal Down -- not *despite* the fact that standing on the tee I could tell what I was in for, but *because* of it.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2021, 01:31:14 AM by Peter Pallotta »

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How much information should you get from the tee?
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2021, 08:24:41 PM »
I forgot to mention that one of the great courses that I have played has a periscope in the Pro Shop to view Hole 1.


Ira

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How much information should you get from the tee?
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2021, 09:40:01 PM »
All skills are equal in the crucible of golf.


The ones you prefer tested are what make up your preferences.


Play away, please!
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: How much information should you get from the tee?
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2021, 03:14:47 AM »

The greatest Par 5 I've ever played is the 8th at Crystal Down -- not *despite* the fact that standing on the tee I could tell what I was in for, but *because* of it.


You could have no way of knowing all the contours in the fairway standing on the tee, nor the importance of being up the right side with your second.  It took me a lot of rounds to understand the latter.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How much information should you get from the tee?
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2021, 05:11:33 AM »
If great courses really do need to be played many times before we can realize how great they are, how do you explain all the award-winning new courses over the last 20 years that have debuted high on the Top 100 lists soon after (or even immediately upon) their opening -- with raters having only one or two chances to play them before casting their ballots?

[Btw: Did it take the golfers of the day a long time/many plays to deem Pine Valley great? Was the high praise for NGLA before it even opened more muted than it would've been if all the experts had played it multiple times first?]

No, that's just another piece of tired conventional wisdom and bland consensus opinion. So too is the notion that it's hard to figure out a great golf hole from the tee, and that much needs to be hidden/subtle for the hole to be great. The greatness of a golf hole doesn't lie in/depend on obfuscation or complexity or even hidden subtlety. The truth is simpler (and yet more mysterious) than any of that; greatness just *is*.

The greatest Par 5 I've ever played is the 8th at Crystal Down -- not *despite* the fact that standing on the tee I could tell what I was in for, but *because* of it.


Pietro


I agree that sometimes ya know a course is great after one go. You may learn stuff with more rounds, but the course is still great.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: How much information should you get from the tee?
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2021, 09:56:53 AM »


It would be interesting, again, to hear what Tom D thinks that Brooks Keopka would say about purposely hiding the strategy of a hole?  It might change over time, and over a generation of golfers.  On the am side, I bet there aren't a lot of folks outside the golf architecture nerd community who feel hiding the hole's light under a bushel is a great thing.


Brooks is very much the opposite of the Jim Colbert view.  Professional golfers are never playing a course blind - they take practice rounds.  He feels like a big part of playing professionally is figuring out how best to attack the course, and the more complex or confusing the strategy, the fewer guys are going to make the right decisions.


Week to week on the Tour, most courses are very straightforward; there are only a few per year where it matters a lot where you miss.  Those tend to be the majors, so it’s not the least bit surprising that Brooks feels more engaged those weeks.


Mr Dye always felt that way, too ... it was the player’s job to figure out what to do, and his job to make that difficult for them. 

Ben Hollerbach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How much information should you get from the tee?
« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2021, 10:42:59 AM »
As long as the view from the tee doesn't purposely direct me into a bad decision, I'm typically ok with just about anything.


The only tee shot that I can remember being upset about the visual from the tee was on the 4th at Royal New Kent. With 50 yards of Fairway being hidden by a large hill in front of you and the only visual you have is a cluster of fw bunkers down the right, I believed the bunkers must be the tee shot line and they were virtually unreachable. Of course I drove my ball in the bunkers, which is the absolute last place you want to be.


There was a white alignment stone at the top of the hill but I wasn't aware of the stone when I played there over a decade ago. The next time I play there I'll know better.






Peter Pallotta

Re: How much information should you get from the tee?
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2021, 11:33:12 AM »
The greatest Par 5 I've ever played is the 8th at Crystal Down -- not *despite* the fact that standing on the tee I could tell what I was in for, but *because* of it.
You could have no way of knowing all the contours in the fairway standing on the tee, nor the importance of being up the right side with your second.  It took me a lot of rounds to understand the latter.
I knew my first 3 paragraphs were good, but that this one was iffy!
Yes, it's true and you're right: I didn't and couldn't know the importance of the right side.
But on the other hand: on a very poor-average Par 5, it might take me a few plays to realize the importance of the *left* side.
Which is to say: I just don't think the notion of multiple plays/revealing itself over time is a particularly accurate or interesting metric for greatness.
It can't be -- as I suggested above, it seems to that the great courses both in the golden age and in the renaissance were recognized as such almost before they opened! 
« Last Edit: September 24, 2021, 11:46:41 AM by Peter Pallotta »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How much information should you get from the tee? New
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2021, 10:25:30 PM »
Other than stay left, can anyone here say that standing on most of the tees at The Old Course at St. Andrews, they know what to do off the tee??  Even if you have played it several times, you better have a good caddy or you will have little clue what to do or where to go or how best to approach different holes/shots under different conditions. 


There are many courses where you can tell right away they are likely going to be special but all the great ones will have little nuances and design subtleties that will never be all revealed to you on one or two rounds.  Granted if you know what to look for you can see and learn at lot but it takes time to truly understand the best golf courses and why and how good they really are. 
« Last Edit: September 25, 2021, 06:35:12 AM by Mark_Fine »

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