News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Rick Sides

  • Karma: +0/-0
Slow Play
« on: August 30, 2021, 06:29:19 PM »
So I played the Links Of Gettysburg this weekend, thanks for the suggestions.  I was in front of a group of people from another country who were very slow, tons of practice swings, but mostly because they bet on every hole and would take minutes on the next tee box to settle up the money.  I was soooo tempted to say something to them. 5 and a half hour round for 3 of us.  What advise would you give in future to intercede and stop this?

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slow Play
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2021, 06:43:53 PM »
Call the pro shop and let them handle it.  You never know the reaction when you suggest directly that they let you through or speed up.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slow Play
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2021, 06:59:44 PM »
Rick,

I'm guessing you meant to say you were right behind them. 

Typically I would ask  tod play thru in that situation, even if it meant picking up on the green to meet up on tee box.

And if they said no, call the pro shop and ask for the marshall to intercede (preferably within ear shot)

And if that didn't work, start hitting a few chili peppers up their backside because that will get their attention.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slow Play
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2021, 07:30:53 PM »
Which country were they from and why would that matter? The USA has the slowest golfers by a wide margin.

Mark Smolens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slow Play
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2021, 08:00:53 PM »
Which country were they from and why would that matter? The USA has the slowest golfers by a wide margin.


Amen to this.


When I went to Scotland and Ireland in '91 we had started as a foursome. When scheduling a round at Turnberry, they required us to book as two 2-balls since we were American. One guy bailed, so we played as three. One of our guys was painfully slow, but it is mainly due to his propensity to hit the ball off-line (not a recipe for success on links courses). He arrived across the pond with 6 dozen Titleist Professionals, but had lost them all by day 8 of the trip (which was admittedly a lot -- we ended up playing 16 rounds in 9 days, with two ferry rides across to NI and back from Ireland).


If the gap in front of this group was big enough, I'm for skipping a hole.

JLahrman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slow Play
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2021, 09:25:09 PM »
I think you did the right thing by posting about it here. If they play that slow they're likely on GCA.

JohnVDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slow Play
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2021, 10:07:46 AM »
I think you did the right thing by posting about it here. If they play that slow they're likely on GCA.


Only if they are taking pictures of every hole.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slow Play
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2021, 10:40:06 AM »
Have we really gotten to the point where it's inappropriate to ask to play through?
BUT, before you do ask, make a honest effort to see what the traffic is like in front of them.
To some degree, I see Lou's point with unknown parties, and I'd like to think a daily fee course would have a system in place to be aware if such a gap indeed does exist, and a plan to deal with it.


What saddens me, especially at a private club, is that every time there's a group playing at a different pace than the group in front, whether by group size, sheer speed,slow play on an uncrowded course etc. they think have to call the golf shop to facillitate something that happens many times a day at a proper UK club-a simple play through, which should be a complete non event,and can even be friendly and social.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2021, 11:08:32 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slow Play
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2021, 10:49:18 AM »

Design can sometimes affect pace and flow of play.  With help from Forrest Richardson, this is the chapter from "Designs on a Better Course" which ASGCA published late last year.  There are a few pace of play consultants now, and the book gives about 300 wors per topic, so there is much more to say, but since this is a design website, I thought I would offer it up.  As usual with cut and paste here, there are some formatting problems, so apologies in advance.




Are There Quick Solutions for Slow Play?
The 4 hour round is as real as the Unicorn.  With some foursomes regularly imitating turtles, American golf has a problem.  It’s been building for decades, and the golf industry has been too slow on quick play solutions.  Design played a part, with a misplaced design focus on “championship courses,” excessive length (to paraphrase Churchill, “Never has so much golf course been built for so few”), and real estate courses (with longer cart rides) all of which have added nothing but time to every round of golf. 
 
We can’t convert turtles to greyhounds, but with new research on the issues of poor flow and slow play, we can modify design features and management policies that can cause problems.  Each course needs careful study to optimize results, but here are some general ideas:
 
·       Remove features designed for tour pros who will never show up.
·       Decrease difficulty, increase playability, especially at public courses.
·       Shorten your course and reorganize tees to eliminate 5-10 “unnecessary shots” per round. (See “How Far Apart Should Our Multiple Tees Be”)
·       Consider regulating selfies, if golfers exhibit too little “selfie” control.
·       Design greens with easily read contours.  Golfers as confused as goats on artificial turf, will move slower than turtles.
·       Reduce green speeds! (9-10 is the most average golfers can handle)
·       Easy holes play fast.  Hard holes and par 3 holes play slow.  Easy holes just before either will surely cause backups on the tee.  As much has possible, balance out the difficulties on each hole to keep play moving.
·       Widen fairways and play corridors. Make sure turf reductions are well planned considering shot dispersion patterns of “C and D” players. 
·       Remove brush from wooded areas to reduce lost golf ball search time.
·       If the Rules of Golf allow, replace “O.B.” areas with “Penalty Areas.”
·       Reduce distance and travel time from green to next tee.
·       Design travel routes and distances primarily for the busiest tees.  If possible, no need to travel by every tee you have no intention of playing.
 
·       Add bridges to create direct routes.  Avoid combining bridges or paths to save money, if they lengthen walking and cart routes.
·       Put short par 5’s, drivable par 4’s, and the first par 3 hole as far back in each nine as possible.
·       Eliminate as many hazards as possible in areas that get a lot of play, (i.e., short right of greens and anywhere right of fairways).
·     Where you place hazards, remember that:
o  Ponds are actually the fastest play hazard, with few golfers looking for their “deep sixed” golf balls.
o  Green side sand bunkers (always use Sand Wedge) play fairly fast.
o  Greenside chipping areas maintained at fairway height can be tricky for many, but misses are quick.
o  Deep rough (extensive ball searches) and fairway sand bunkers (difficult shot for most, indecision in club selection) slow play.
·       While most courses should accommodate all players, some may consider tailoring design to narrower market segments, which may speed play.
l  Reverse the 1980’s-1990’s “Country Club for a Day” trend, where more public courses were designed with private club difficulty, and even muni courses were no longer golf’s version of the bunny slopes.
l  Spreading out tee times is proven to reduce congestion.  Go from 6-8 minutes to 10-15 minutes.  At daily fee facilities, you’ll likely be able to charge more for what will become a better experience.
l  Adopt the relaxed USGA rules of play and other time saving policies.
 
Some concepts go against traditional architectural theories, but times change and “necessity is the mother of invention.” Newer design paradigms - some paradoxically borrowed from old ones – can help to make golf fast again. 
 
In reality, a combination of many little things will add up to big time savings.  Course policies are a major component in the battle to speed play.  Design is only part of the solution.  However, while pace of play is a critical issue, we can’t return to dull, hazardless golf to achieve it.  Plain courses are out.  Beautiful, exciting courses with appropriate difficulty are in, and will be necessary to continue to draw golfers. 
 
Rather than neutering holes on your own, retain an architect, who can skillfully design fun, interesting and challenging golf holes that also keep play moving. 
 
 
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slow Play
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2021, 11:06:02 AM »
What saddens me, especially at a private cub, is that every time there's a group playing at a different pace than the group in front, whether by group size, sheer speed,slow play on an uncrowded course etc. they think have to call the golf shop to facillitate something that happens many times a day at a proper UK club-a simple play through, which should be a complete non event,and can even be friendly and social.
Unfortunately not so much in the U.K. these days Jeff. Attitudes have changed. Once upon a time slow groups were expected to let those behind playing faster through, indeed the onus per the RoG is still written this was I believe. And groups not letting faster players through were likely to be given a bollocking and looked down up by others at the club concerned.
These days not letting faster groups through happens significantly more. As do failures of other courtesies like not ringing bells on blind holes etc.
Maybe it’s due to the increase in golf participation with more newish players now involved due to Covid times but standards of etiquette etc ain’t what they once were in the U.K. at least in my experience over the last couple of years. Lack out shouting “Fore” when shots go off-line is becoming commonplace too (just like on TV) :(
Atb
« Last Edit: August 31, 2021, 03:11:57 PM by Thomas Dai »

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slow Play
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2021, 11:18:07 AM »


What saddens me, especially at a private club, is that every time there's a group playing at a different pace than the group in front, whether by group size, sheer speed,slow play on an uncrowded course etc. they think have to call the golf shop to facillitate something that happens many times a day at a proper UK club-a simple play through, which should be a complete non event,and can even be friendly and social.





+ a million.


Why would any member do this to a Head Pro? Putting him in the middle is nuts--all that will happen is 1 group is going to end up pissed at him--and probably both.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slow Play
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2021, 11:25:31 AM »


What saddens me, especially at a private club, is that every time there's a group playing at a different pace than the group in front, whether by group size, sheer speed,slow play on an uncrowded course etc. they think have to call the golf shop to facillitate something that happens many times a day at a proper UK club-a simple play through, which should be a complete non event,and can even be friendly and social.





+ a million.


Why would any member do this to a Head Pro? Putting him in the middle is nuts--all that will happen is 1 group is going to end up pissed at him--and probably both.


It rarely happens now, because we're always busy now, so therefore I have 1-2 assistants roving at all times.(a luxury we have because I have 8 PGA memebrs on my staff due to the high demand for lessons)
It happens generally when we AREN't busy, when a two ball who is playing at a three hour pace encounters a 4 ball or two.
With caddies, it can easily be arranged, but so many insist on calling the shop, even when it's someone they know in front.
Usually takes a bit longer to mobilize someone when that's the case ;)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slow Play
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2021, 11:42:54 AM »
I will say that course marshalls have a tough job.  And that I know they piss off women all the time by assuming they are the cause of slow play.  My wife and I got warned by a marshall a few years ago.  He goes right up to her to issue the warning.  As it happened, on that hole, I hit the water twice and had a 10, while she had a missed putt bogey. :o
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slow Play
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2021, 11:51:41 AM »
Relax and ask yourself this question:  Where else would I rather be right now?


Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

JLahrman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slow Play
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2021, 11:55:11 AM »
Relax and ask yourself this question:  Where else would I rather be right now?


Bogey



On the next hole, apparently!

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slow Play
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2021, 12:59:43 PM »
ask them if, when driving on the freeway, they are annoyed with a driver hogging the fast lane and driving at or under the speed limit.  The same animal

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slow Play
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2021, 01:21:51 PM »
How many times do we catch the driver in front of us only to realize that if not for him we would be driving slower.

Mark Smolens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slow Play
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2021, 01:22:07 PM »
It may sound like an animal, but actually it's just part of one. . .

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slow Play
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2021, 01:51:40 PM »
They used to call me an extremist when I advocated the death penalty for rounds over four hours.  I thought I was being liberal.   ;)
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slow Play
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2021, 02:19:28 PM »
After all these years you have finally learned that looking at your watch is a sign of disrespect.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Slow Play
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2021, 02:29:24 PM »
Which country were they from and why would that matter? The USA has the slowest golfers by a wide margin.


Years ago I was playing at Ballybunion in a four ball with a couple of golf writers, and a friend who was quite slow.  I was keenly aware we were holding up the group behind us, so on the tenth hole, we let them play through.  One of the Irish fellows in the group behind us was ninety years old, and this finally convinced my friend that maybe he needed to work on playing faster.   :D

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slow Play
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2021, 03:10:02 PM »
Which country were they from and why would that matter? The USA has the slowest golfers by a wide margin.


Years ago I was playing at Ballybunion in a four ball with a couple of golf writers, and a friend who was quite slow.  I was keenly aware we were holding up the group behind us, so on the tenth hole, we let them play through.  One of the Irish fellows in the group behind us was ninety years old, and this finally convinced my friend that maybe he needed to work on playing faster.   :D


OT-but age related
I was on a trip with a player who insisted on caddies, repeatedly saying how they were "tradition" despite the fact that we were playing remote courses where there wasn't a caddie within 50 miles, and the fact that only American tourists take caddies in Ireland.


Finally, at a relatively well known course I procured him a caddie, so this young, physically fit player was accompanied by an 87 year old woman who didn't play golf, who strolled behind him pointing her remote at her borrowed electric trolley....
he didn't ask for anymore caddies.


I enjoyed her company.

« Last Edit: August 31, 2021, 03:22:40 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slow Play
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2021, 03:13:41 PM »
I dislike waiting on almost every shot, but we play fast so sometimes it is not the "fault" of the groups in front of us. But what really makes me uncomfortable is when we are paired up with slower players and see that we are holding people up. I never quite know what to say to speed them up so I usually end up getting my wife pissed at me because I say something to her even though she plays fast. It particularly throws me for a loop when we are playing with friends.


Ira

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slow Play
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2021, 03:32:18 PM »
If the golf shop or on-course ranger prove ineffective, I would of course ask nicely to play through - assuming that it is clear in front of them.


If that did not work, I would just skip a hole and move past them and return to play the missed hole later if possible.


Slow play is the ultimate sin in golf.
It defines disrespect, discourteousness and selfishness.


Anyone who says get over it" or "where else do you need to go" is basically admitting that they are guilty of slow play themselves...;-)


Like someone esle said, how would you feel if you were stuck behind a driver going 40 mph in a 55 mph zone?


Doubt you would just turn on some music and enjoy the day.
You would honk, flash your lights, make gestures, then if that did not work, you would simply pass his ass when you can assuming that traffic is OK ahead.


Sympathisers of slow play are guilty by association....;-)

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slow Play
« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2021, 03:34:32 PM »
Had a new, for me, slow play experience recently.  This gentleman had a new set of clubs (sounded like a regular occurrence for him) with covers on each club, which he fastidiously replaced after every shot, despite small trembles in his hands.  It probably added 30 seconds (but it seemed like a few minutes) to every shot just to get his head covers back on.  Add in a propensity to tell stories, and it dragged out a bit, or more than a bit.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back