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Thomas Dai

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Martin Ebert (M&E) interview
« on: August 30, 2021, 08:24:29 AM »
Folks might like to listen to this Podcast interview with Martin Ebert of M&E -
https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-cookie-jar-golf-podcast/id1493651992?i=1000533501967
atb

Tim Gallant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Martin Ebert (M&E) interview
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2021, 02:30:48 PM »
Thanks Thomas - a good listen as I haven't heard too many podcasts with Martin. There were a few comments that made me raise my eyebrow, including:


- He respects others and their ability to design more or less in the field off a loose plan, but likes to stick to his plans more or less (although concedes some finessing is usually required)
- Has embraced technology and sees M&E using more 3D imagery and other technology in place of more frequent trips to courses in the future
- Feels he focused too much on greens in the early part of his career, but now focuses more on green surrounds, and bunkering
- My interpretation from his comments is that his attitude towards restoration is more: replicating the challenge of 'then', for today's players. 'What would Colt / Mackenzie do now?, instead of faithful restorations


Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Martin Ebert (M&E) interview
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2021, 02:55:33 PM »
- My interpretation from his comments is that his attitude towards restoration is more: replicating the challenge of 'then', for today's players. 'What would Colt / Mackenzie do now?, instead of faithful restorations


I am curious, what other types of "restorations" can you think of?  When the original architects like Ross and Dye worked on their own designs, did they not update them to at least retain the challenge that had diminished due to changes in abilities, equipment, and the passage of time?  I never heard of a "faithful" restoration; a "sympathetic" restoration yes.  To me, that usually means updating the course in the style of the original architect at a specific point in time to retain the shot options, strategies, and challenge that were prevalent then, but now substantially reduced.


My brief interactions with Martin over the years have given me the impression that he is a very thoughtful man who has great respect for the work done by his predecessors.  At the same time, he understands that golf has been evolving since Day 1- the stuff we've been arguing on here for 20 years with too much recrimination for my taste is nothing new.  He also knows that his clients, some who we paint in these pages as uniformed, simple-minded, and ego-driven, are actually quite capable of evaluating the arguments and reaching thoughtful solutions on behalf of their clubs.


Hopefully I can figure out how to get to the podcast without having to do much with apple.com.  The last thing I want is more come-ons.   




Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Martin Ebert (M&E) interview
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2021, 03:07:54 PM »
To replicate the challenge originally intended, one needs to think about what that challenge was.  My one interaction with him suggested he had barely looked at, let alone thought about the intent, of the original design, preferring just to go straight to his 21st century version of what Colt "intended".  Count me unimpressed.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2021, 03:56:29 AM by Mark Pearce »
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Tim Gallant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Martin Ebert (M&E) interview
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2021, 03:55:24 PM »
- My interpretation from his comments is that his attitude towards restoration is more: replicating the challenge of 'then', for today's players. 'What would Colt / Mackenzie do now?, instead of faithful restorations


I am curious, what other types of "restorations" can you think of?  When the original architects like Ross and Dye worked on their own designs, did they not update them to at least retain the challenge that had diminished due to changes in abilities, equipment, and the passage of time?  I never heard of a "faithful" restoration; a "sympathetic" restoration yes.  To me, that usually means updating the course in the style of the original architect at a specific point in time to retain the shot options, strategies, and challenge that were prevalent then, but now substantially reduced.


My brief interactions with Martin over the years have given me the impression that he is a very thoughtful man who has great respect for the work done by his predecessors.  At the same time, he understands that golf has been evolving since Day 1- the stuff we've been arguing on here for 20 years with too much recrimination for my taste is nothing new.  He also knows that his clients, some who we paint in these pages as uniformed, simple-minded, and ego-driven, are actually quite capable of evaluating the arguments and reaching thoughtful solutions on behalf of their clubs.


Hopefully I can figure out how to get to the podcast without having to do much with apple.com.  The last thing I want is more come-ons.


Lou,


It's well worth a listen - if you go onto the Cookie Jar golf website, it's on the homepage that you can listen to :)


Re: types of restoration - I'd agree, that there are very few faithful restorations (would the new Lido count??). That said, most might be sympathetic as you say, and argue 'Colt wanted to challenge the players with this bunker, but it's no longer doing that, so let's put it 30 yards on', and there's a bit of logic to that. It's a bit of a stretch though when Martin says that Colt would approve creating those two new holes from the Valley course if he knew the Open was coming there. He may be right, but if Colt didn't say that or allude to it, then it's just speculation.


And this is just my personal opinion, but I still believe older great courses should be preserved as much as possible, regardless of how they stand up to today's challenge. Why iron out the wrinkles of time, when often it's those creases that in time become iconic?


I've not had the pleasure of meeting Martin, but he is obviously incredibly passionate about GCA, and seems very thoughtful, sincere and kind as you say. I hope one day we cross paths...I just hope he doesn't read this site  ;D

« Last Edit: August 30, 2021, 03:58:31 PM by Tim Gallant »

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Martin Ebert (M&E) interview
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2021, 04:03:00 PM »
Moving bunkers for the modern game is renovation. Designing greens in the “style” of someone is renovation with a bit of lip service.


Returning the skeleton of a hole routing to an old hole corridor is restoration. Rebuilding a renovated green to the closest dimensions you can get from old surveys or photos is restoration.


Tim - he does.

Tim Gallant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Martin Ebert (M&E) interview
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2021, 04:10:38 PM »
Moving bunkers for the modern game is renovation. Designing greens in the “style” of someone is renovation with a bit of lip service.


Returning the skeleton of a hole routing to an old hole corridor is restoration. Rebuilding a renovated green to the closest dimensions you can get from old surveys or photos is restoration.


Tim - he does.


Ally,


I'd agree with all that...maybe except the first example - I suppose it depends on the intent the architect intended, and whether you're trying to restore that decision. I think I just about agree with you that it probably still counts as a renovation, but I know the renovation/restoration argument has been had many times on this site.


Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Martin Ebert (M&E) interview
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2021, 04:32:01 PM »
We have had some quite significant changes to our course by M&E. To be honest, I don't have any idea if Ebert had much input or how much of the work was guided by the club. That said, I am not impressed. Most of the work was centered around removing the awkward, but highly individual features of the course in favour of flavour of the day ideas. I can only hope that M&E  or whichever aspect of the partnership advised against the changes, but did the work at the club's insistence. I hate seeing courses being homogenised and so far as I can tell, for the most part, that is what has been happening at many courses. It gets old thinking what was spent on redesign rather than trying far cheaper was to make what exists work to its full potential.

Ciao
« Last Edit: August 30, 2021, 05:34:53 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Peter Pallotta

Re: Martin Ebert (M&E) interview
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2021, 04:50:05 PM »
The truth is that most great old courses need neither a renovation nor a restoration to stand up to the modern game. An original 6000-6300 yard course by Ross or Colt or Mackenzie still provides more than enough challenge & interest to the vast majority of today's golfers, using the latest equipment. The debate-distinction between restorations and renovations -- which I used to find so interesting -- seem to me now to merely obfuscate this basic truth.


Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Martin Ebert (M&E) interview
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2021, 05:05:50 PM »
I don’t really understand how “What x would have done today” (which is completely impossible to know and therefore has to be a value judgement) can possibly be considered restorative
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Martin Ebert (M&E) interview
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2021, 05:25:41 PM »
The truth is that most great old courses need neither a renovation nor a restoration to stand up to the modern game. An original 6000-6300 yard course by Ross or Colt or Mackenzie still provides more than enough challenge & interest to the vast majority of today's golfers, using the latest equipment. The debate-distinction between restorations and renovations -- which I used to find so interesting -- seem to me now to merely obfuscate this basic truth.


True Dat.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Martin Ebert (M&E) interview
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2021, 03:56:18 PM »
I can't say that I get too bothered with regards to restoration versus renovation and even what they mean. To me good design is good design. Clearly when it comes to making changes to a great course then you have a very high bar to get over. For me that bar is based on whether what you are planning to do is making the course better rather than whether it is a true restoration/renovation or whatever. As for M&E's work, I've liked a lot of what I've seen and some of it is very very good. I can't really think of too much that I thought was poor and perhaps the closest to that was the bunding to the rear of the 9th at Troon but I can understand why it was done. The rest of the work there was excellent.


I've never met Martin but have enjoyed exchanging emails on occasion with him and Tom on historical stuff. It's clear to me that he is an enthusiast for the work of the ODG's and not just paying lip service.


Niall









Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Martin Ebert (M&E) interview
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2021, 04:02:11 PM »
Speaks very well. All common sense and 99% correct. Overall he likes the standards that this group likes.


My only very minor gripe would be the thinking we can return to fescue greens in the UK. 6mm HOC will not be popular as best practice to the higher paying punters coupled with the cultural methods that go with fescue retention.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

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