Member Whining about Bunker Sand

[Terry Lavin]

We are in year 2 of the Beverly CC restoration. It has been very favorably received, but there’s a lot of chatter about the sand that was used. Early on, some argued it was too dense. Then they complained it was too dry and too many fried eggs.


Previously we had used Best Sand but it fell out of favor after five years or so. The sand we bought came from a Wisconsin company with a great reputation. I believe the same sand is in use at dozens of area courses including Skokie and Shoreacres.


Any advice on how to deal with the messaging on this issue?  Any anecdotal evidence from other restorations?

[Quinn Thompson]

...will members at Beverly ever be content with what they got ?


I know those members, I know that neighborhood: you guys will be toying with that place forever.

[Ben Hollerbach]

Tell them the sand in the bunkers now is the same sand Augusta National uses?


Or to say that the bunker is a hazard and you should be avoiding them anyway.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I can relate. Where I live the sand we have is dreadful. However, the new super we have learned how to tend it so that we have fewer fried eggs and the sand responds better to a normal explosion. I don't know what he did but it made all the difference in the world. The same is true with the new super at Ballyhack. I wonder how much is the sand and how much is maintenance practices.

[Mike_Trenham]

Can the club champion typically manage to get shots in the vicinity of the hole?

[Duncan Cheslett]

My club is one year into a three year bunker renovation programme. The bunkers on six holes are new and the sand is light and fluffy. The other bunkers are a little old, tired, and tend towards hard-pan during the summer months.


I played a knock-out match last night against a member of 40 years standing who has seen it all and knows everything. He went in a lot of bunkers during our round. He whined about the new bunkers just as much as he whined about the old ones. I tactfully tried to pin him down to specifics on what aspects of the various bunkers he was unhappy with, but he seemed unable to articulate his complaints. "They're all crap" was the best he could come up with.


I won our match 3 and 2. I didn't go in a single bunker all evening while my opponent gave away at least three holes with poor bunker shots. There's a moral there somewhere.

[Thomas Dai]

Anyone for crushed marble?
Atb

[Rob Marshall]

Ours have taken a while to settle in but they get powdery when really dry and you get fried eggs. Our Supper waters them. We have the same sand as Oak Hill and the Super over there waters them as well.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Terry -


I am NO sand expert, but did hang around and listen a lot to others.
We used a sand called "Deep (Steep?) Face Waupaca" and I believe it is the same sand used at CGC, SA, Conway, Skokie and others...and perhaps now the Bev. It is darker.


The alternative is something I think is called "Tour Angle" and that is what you will see at Butler, Medina and, sadly, Knollwood. It is VERY WHITE.


We had the same debates and feedback.


We equated the bunker sand to "lipstick and make-up".
If you have an old grand-dame (ODG course), you dont adorn her with fancy bright lipstick that makes her look like a tart who is trying too hard.


The make up should be "age appropriate" and reflect the class that the old girl brings to the party. Besides, the sand doesnt make the fried egg, the player does. (Unless your super is watering the bunkers..;-)


Or, tell those members that the GCAs did offer the "no fried egg coating option" on the sand, but would have been another $1,000 per member so the board shot it down...


Where's Andy Johnson when you need him?

[Jim Hoak]

Not an answer about what to say--but, as for me, my pet gripe about sand is where there isn't enough of it.  Hitting from too thin sand and having the ball sail over the green is one of the most frustrating feelings in golf.

[Mike_Clayton]

Not an answer about what to say--but, as for me, my pet gripe about sand is where there isn't enough of it.  Hitting from too thin sand and having the ball sail over the green is one of the most frustrating feelings in golf.

Jim,


If you come to play the Melbourne sandbelt you'll be in a world of pain unless you grind some bounce of the sand iron, learn to get a little steeper coming into the ball - and hit just behind it. 2 inches behind when the sand is thin is way to much space between the club and the ball.

[Jeff Schley]

Not an answer about what to say--but, as for me, my pet gripe about sand is where there isn't enough of it.  Hitting from too thin sand and having the ball sail over the green is one of the most frustrating feelings in golf.

Jim,


If you come to play the Melbourne sandbelt you'll be in a world of pain unless you grind some bounce of the sand iron, learn to get a little steeper coming into the ball - and hit just behind it. 2 inches behind when the sand is thin is way to much space between the club and the ball.

Mike I was going to post don't go to Metro down under then, but didn't want to pile on Australia as I loved the courses.
It was an "adjustment" to play out of the very firm sand on the sand belt for sure and if one in the US would find their bunkers similarly they may say they are neglected. However the sand is heavier there and I know your maintenance with rakes and solid faces seems to be the norm. It's like going to play a links and criticizing them for not having trees, it is expected in Australia and one style isn't better than the other. Embrace it and enjoy.

[Jim Hoak]

Mike and Jeff, I have been to the Sandbelt courses--and Metropolitan in particular--and loved them.  I guess the real issue is consistency.  If you expect thin sand, you can play it.  But if the sand has been thick, and then you come to one that isn't and also isn't apparent, that creates the problem.

[Stephen Britton]

I've found when you hear complaints about bunker sand in new bunkers it's typically soft sand caused by the bunker liner, and not the fault of the bunker sand itself.


Most of these new bunker liners dry the sand out too much causing plugged balls.

[Jim_Kennedy]

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/course-care/regional-updates/southeast-region/2019/bunker-sand-too-hard-too-soft-too-wet-too-dry.html

[Craig Sweet]

We've got a mountain of black slag you can have!  It contains traces of arsenic and lead, but it makes great bunker fill at the Old Works!

[Tom Bacsanyi]

I'm kinda obsessed with the red sand at Sand Hollow (any other ones)? I think that just fits the West so well and would work here in the Rocky Mountains as well. Trucking from Utah should be cheaper than Ohio I would think.

[mike_beene]

I think it is difficult for serious players to understand just how bad the sand game is for those who play more to socialize or exercise. When you can’t get out of a bunker you quickly join the complaining crowd. The people who picked up golf later on really struggle.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

I think it is difficult for serious players to understand just how bad the sand game is for those who play more to socialize or exercise. When you can’t get out of a bunker you quickly join the complaining crowd. The people who picked up golf later on really struggle.

Extending your logic, if bad players are hopeless out of sand, and great players are usually great out of the sand to the point where bunkers are essentially irrelevant, then what is the point of bunkers or sand where it doesn't exist naturally?

[Pete_Pittock]

I'm kinda obsessed with the red sand at Sand Hollow (any other ones)? I think that just fits the West so well and would work here in the Rocky Mountains as well. Trucking from Utah should be cheaper than Ohio I would think.

Aspen Lake (central Oregon) bunkers are red, but it is crushed volcanic cinder.

[Jaeger Kovich]

I've found when you hear complaints about bunker sand in new bunkers it's typically soft sand caused by the bunker liner, and not the fault of the bunker sand itself.


Most of these new bunker liners dry the sand out too much causing plugged balls.

Really? Most of the bunkers I’ve seen w the sprayed epoxy or porous concrete end up w an algae problem and are very wet v very dry.

[archie_struthers]

 


I feel the opposite of Jim Haok as to the sand....nothing worse for me than too much sand, rather hit it off hard pan. Pretty sure no matter what you do with bunkers many golfers won't like it. The expense to make it great all the time is more than the averge course budget can accommodate and many players don't do a very good job cleaning up after their shot.


I do think it's a nurture vs nature argument in many ways. A good superintendent can make bad sand better thru maintenance and drainage programs. The good ones are invaluable to the operation!

[Stephen Britton]

I've found when you hear complaints about bunker sand in new bunkers it's typically soft sand caused by the bunker liner, and not the fault of the bunker sand itself.


Most of these new bunker liners dry the sand out too much causing plugged balls.

Really? Most of the bunkers I’ve seen w the sprayed epoxy or porous concrete end up w an algae problem and are very wet v very dry.

I've seen the bottoms stay wet, but the faces seem to be too dry, especially up high close to the lips.


I know of three clubs in my area that have recently renovated bunkers, all with different systems, all have bunker faces that almost turn to powder during a dry week, two are hand watering bunker faces when labor permits during a dry week to keep the faces damp and firm... again, seems to be worse high up on the face close to the lips.

[Joe Hancock]

I've found when you hear complaints about bunker sand in new bunkers it's typically soft sand caused by the bunker liner, and not the fault of the bunker sand itself.


Most of these new bunker liners dry the sand out too much causing plugged balls.

Really? Most of the bunkers I’ve seen w the sprayed epoxy or porous concrete end up w an algae problem and are very wet v very dry.

I've seen the bottoms stay wet, but the faces seem to be too dry, especially up high close to the lips.


I know of three clubs in my area that have recently renovated bunkers, all with different systems, all have bunker faces that almost turn to powder during a dry week, two are hand watering bunker faces when labor permits during a dry week to keep the faces damp and firm... again, seems to be worse high up on the face close to the lips.

Every time we humans try to out-engineer mother nature, we create unforeseen problems. Or, possibly, our problems arise from our expectations?

[Kyle Harris]

I've found when you hear complaints about bunker sand in new bunkers it's typically soft sand caused by the bunker liner, and not the fault of the bunker sand itself.


Most of these new bunker liners dry the sand out too much causing plugged balls.

Really? Most of the bunkers I’ve seen w the sprayed epoxy or porous concrete end up w an algae problem and are very wet v very dry.

I've seen the bottoms stay wet, but the faces seem to be too dry, especially up high close to the lips.


I know of three clubs in my area that have recently renovated bunkers, all with different systems, all have bunker faces that almost turn to powder during a dry week, two are hand watering bunker faces when labor permits during a dry week to keep the faces damp and firm... again, seems to be worse high up on the face close to the lips.

Every time we humans try to out-engineer mother nature, we create unforeseen problems. Or, possibly, our problems arise from our expectations?

The only thing anyone can expect on a golf course is to be able to remove the ball from the hole, move it to the next teeing ground, and if they so choose, place it upon a tee within that teeing ground.