[mike_malone]

What distinguishes Tillinghast as a remarkable architect?

[Kyle Harris]

Following.

[Michael Moore]

Mike -
 
I have always wanted to start this thread. I have found his courses to be suffering from gigantism - huge tee boxes, huge fairways, huge bunkers, huge greens - and lacking in fine details and quirky features. Yes, on great sites this worked extremely well and there he left behind several masterpieces, but there is a nagging unimaginative quality in what I have seen of his oeuvre.

[mike_malone]

I’m a bit baffled myself. Trey Kemp had Sunnehanna as his aerial today and that looked interesting. Otherwise I haven’t seen much fun.

[Eric LeFante]

Mike -
 
I have always wanted to start this thread. I have found his courses to be suffering from gigantism - huge tee boxes, huge fairways, huge bunkers, huge greens - and lacking in fine details and quirky features. Yes, on great sites this worked extremely well and there he left behind several masterpieces, but there is a nagging unimaginative quality in what I have seen of his oeuvre.

Have you played Somerset Hills, Winged Foot East, Fenway? Fine details and quirky features is EXACTLY how I would describe those courses.

[Jim_Coleman]

   Go to Philly Cricket tomorrow and watch the Pa. Open.  I think you’ll see a great course.

[mike_malone]

Played Fenway years ago and thought it was a nice members course with a bit too much wasted space on the greens. I’m still owed a round at Somerset Hills from the Eagles Super Bowl win and hear great things about it.

[mike_malone]

   Go to Philly Cricket tomorrow and watch the Pa. Open.  I think you’ll see a great course.

Is that a Tilly or a Foster?

[PCCraig]

I don't know, I suppose I like Tilly as well.


I wouldn't seek out his courses in the same way I would search out a Raynor, Colt, Ross, Mackenzie, Flynn, etc. but I don't remember ever hating a Tilly course.


Golden Valley is a local Tilly course which I enjoy quite a bit. Lots of movement in the greens, deep bunkers, a routing that takes you over roads, rail lines, etc., plus a quirky collection of par (par-73 with about 5 par-5s?). It's a really nice collection of fun and tough.


Maybe my best answer is that Tilly did a wonderful job of blending fun, quirky, and tough.

[Kyle Harris]

Quirky Tilly is probably the best Tilly. Michael Moore there is plenty of small Tillinghast.

He's the #8 hitter in a powerhouse lineup that would bat clean up for the last place team.

Mayday, as a Phillies guy just think of those mid-1990s Terry Francona teams.

[Mike Sweeney]

Good article:



https://golf.com/travel/aw-tillinghast-legendary-course-architect-winged-foot/


Winged Foot West, Baltusrol, and Bethpage Black tend to dominate the NYC conversation, but he has some "intimate" stuff locally:



Suneagles (Jersey Shore):


Bethpage Blue:



Winged Foot East:



Somerset:



And while Tilly's influence at Newport CC can be debated, and the long vistas may overwhelm the intimacy, NCC is absolutely quirky and has many "non-Tilly" attributes:



Suneagles might be the #1 on the list of "could be awesome if restored". There are some Army legacy buildings that probably prevent it...

[Tim Gallant]

Mike,

From what I’ve seen, I would say I ‘like Tilly’! But I tend to favour some of his earlier designs that I’ve seen, where (at least to me) he utilised the unique characteristics of the site into his designs to create distinct golf holes.

For example, I love the par-3 11th at Somerset that utilises the slope of the bank down to the pond to create a severe sloping green and a memorable short one-shorter. Or the 7th, which follows the lay of the land and slopes from front to back, which makes the approach so difficult (and fun!) to play.

At San Fran, there are a few holes on the front 9 that play through corridors, which almost give holes like 2 and 8 this isolated feel of playing through a gigantic half-pipe, while 5 and 6 play high on the plateau with severe drop-offs.

One thing that all his designs seem to have is fantastic internal contours. Whether at Winged Foot, Somerset (5th!), or Quaker, he seemed to build some fantastic, and truly original greens. I do love that there is almost always a good place to miss the green, and an absolute no-go zone. And it’s not always obvious where that is

[mike_malone]

Good article, Mike Sweeney

[JESII]

In my opinion, the 18 green complexes at Winged Foot West qualify him as a remarkable architect...

[mike_malone]

Tim and Jim,


That’s the specificity I wanted.

[Jon Sweet]

Played Fenway years ago and thought it was a nice members course with a bit too much wasted space on the greens. I’m still owed a round at Somerset Hills from the Eagles Super Bowl win and hear great things about it.

Playing it on 25th. Heard from numerous people it’s his best set of greens. Will update.

[Kyle Harris]

Mayday,


Have you played Galen Hall? It has Findlay, Tilly, and the Gordons and represents some fine work from each. Each subsequent addition/change improved the golf course.

In my opinion, The Tillinghast holes which remain are the worst of the lot (as a set, though some individual holes are GREAT) but they are still damn good. That may help cement how YOU feel about it, especially since the Gordon holes channel a ton of Flynn influence.

[mike_malone]

Kyle,
Galen Hall was charming.

[Tommy Williamsen]

The bulk of his major original designs was done in an eleven-year window (1916-1927). Of his courses that I have played his earlier ones tended to be more playable and fun.
ROCHESTER (1916) Not sure how much Tilly was there when I played it 20 years ago. I know some holes were new. The holes that were probably original were just fun and didn’t beat you up. He designed it as a place for his daughter’s family to play. The greens did not have a great deal of movement, as compared to his later designs.
SOMERSET HILLS (1917) & SAN FRANCISCO (1918) Both of these courses have a great set of greens, and the bunkering is just terrific. Two of my favorites. Neither course beats you up.
QUAKER RIDGE (1918) Like most of his designs this is on a great piece of property. He is beginning to design courses that can hold championships. It could hold any tournament, although it might need to be lengthened a bit. The greens have a lot of movement but don’t beat you up, unlike its neighbor.
BALTUSROL UPPER AND LOWER (1922) I will see how much we can attribute to Tilly on the Lower when I played in next month. When I have played it previously it is most RTJ and Rees. The Upper has more Tilly and great fun and did hole a US Open.

PHILLY CRICKET (1922) This was built out of his love for the club and has one of the most fun shots into greens of any of his designs. It doesn’t beat you up.

WINGED FOOT EAST AND WEST (1923) Just hard with some wild greens.


FIVE FARMS (Baltimore 1926) With SFGC this is my favorite course of his. It took a long time to build and he and the club had a strained relationship because of payments.

GOLDEN VALLEY (1926) An excellent club for members. It might not be one of his best but the members love it.

RIDGEWOOD (27 holes-1929) Another very good test that has held a Ryder Cup and a number of USGA championships.

[Gib_Papazian]

In terms of versatility, pretty difficult to come up with examples of two courses further apart than WF West and WF East.


One is a vicious rollercoaster where going in, players know there is more chance of puking on their alligator shirt than breaking 90.


The East is beautiful as it is strategically intricate. When you putt out on the last green, there is an instant temptation to down a pint and run back to the 1st tee.


I can compare it to the Lake Course at Olympic, where nursing in that 3 foot slider at the last for a decent score feels like having survived a gauntlet, where the choice is death or death by bunga.


Yet, a refreshing walk around the Ocean Course is like a soothing tonic, where a marginal swing usually introduces the opportunity for a creative recovery, not a scorecard wrecking death sentence.   


Whether Tillie designed it - or acted as consultant - Bethpage is 18 lashes with a horsewhip, SFGC is a fascinating wine walk through an impossibly elegant art gallery. Same guy . . . . . and don't forget, after America's crash and burn, Tillie consulted on all sorts of WPA golf courses - including the public course I grew up on . . . . .





 

[Jimmy Muratt]

Tillinghast is without a doubt one of the best.   Did anyone do more on a consistent basis with less?   Many of his sites were nice but none of his top courses would qualify as a great site and none were built on sand.   As far as building interesting greens, it's hard to say that anyone was better.   

[Gib_Papazian]

If you want to see an interesting juxtaposition, North Shore CC (I think it is in Glen Head L.I.) advertises on their website they "self-identify" as a C.B./Raynor course, except we never found a shred of evidence C.B. ever set foot there.


However, there *is* evidence that Tille redid a few of the greens, so the golf course is really a nice dovetail of both designers - without feeling disjointed. There are a few templates, obviously Raynor, but the Tillie greens are also extremely interesting. Not sure why nobody ever discusses this golf course, Uncle George and I found it flowed together beautifully.


Tillie did a nice job of blending in his work with Raynor, no easy task because Raynor has an easily identifiable style. 


Of course, Shinnecock is a Raynor/Flynn and nobody ever disses on its mixed pedigree . . . .




 

[Rob Marshall]

The bulk of his major original designs was done in an eleven-year window (1916-1927). Of his courses that I have played his earlier ones tended to be more playable and fun.
ROCHESTER (1916) Not sure how much Tilly was there when I played it 20 years ago. I know some holes were new. The holes that were probably original were just fun and didn’t beat you up. He designed it as a place for his daughter’s family to play. The greens did not have a great deal of movement, as compared to his later designs.
SOMERSET HILLS (1917) & SAN FRANCISCO (1918) Both of these courses have a great set of greens, and the bunkering is just terrific. Two of my favorites. Neither course beats you up.
QUAKER RIDGE (1918) Like most of his designs this is on a great piece of property. He is beginning to design courses that can hold championships. It could hold any tournament, although it might need to be lengthened a bit. The greens have a lot of movement but don’t beat you up, unlike its neighbor.
BALTUSROL UPPER AND LOWER (1922) I will see how much we can attribute to Tilly on the Lower when I played in next month. When I have played it previously it is most RTJ and Rees. The Upper has more Tilly and great fun and did hole a US Open.

PHILLY CRICKET (1922) This was built out of his love for the club and has one of the most fun shots into greens of any of his designs. It doesn’t beat you up.

WINGED FOOT EAST AND WEST (1923) Just hard with some wild greens.


FIVE FARMS (Baltimore 1926) With SFGC this is my favorite course of his. It took a long time to build and he and the club had a strained relationship because of payments.

GOLDEN VALLEY (1926) An excellent club for members. It might not be one of his best but the members love it.

RIDGEWOOD (27 holes-1929) Another very good test that has held a Ryder Cup and a number of USGA championships.

Rochester? Got it Minnesota. Didn't think there were any around Rochester NY. I know he  did 9 holes at Oswego CC.

[Kyle Harris]

If you want to see an interesting juxtaposition, North Shore CC (I think it is in Glen Head L.I.) advertises on their website they "self-identify" as a C.B./Raynor course, except we never found a shred of evidence C.B. ever set foot there.


However, there *is* evidence that Tille redid a few of the greens, so the golf course is really a nie dovetail of both designers - without feeling disjointed. There are a few templates, obviously Raynor, but the Tillie greens are also extremely interesting. Not sure why nobody ever discusses this golf course, Uncle George and I found it flowed together beautifully.


Tillie did a nice job of blending in his work with Raynor, no easy task because Raynor has an easily identifiable style. 


Of course, Shinnecock is a Raynor/Flynn and nobody ever disses on its mixed pedigree . . . .

I think Professor Bausch discovered this to be the lost Template guy: Robert White

[Tommy Williamsen]

The bulk of his major original designs was done in an eleven-year window (1916-1927). Of his courses that I have played his earlier ones tended to be more playable and fun.
ROCHESTER (1916) Not sure how much Tilly was there when I played it 20 years ago. I know some holes were new. The holes that were probably original were just fun and didn’t beat you up. He designed it as a place for his daughter’s family to play. The greens did not have a great deal of movement, as compared to his later designs.
SOMERSET HILLS (1917) & SAN FRANCISCO (1918) Both of these courses have a great set of greens, and the bunkering is just terrific. Two of my favorites. Neither course beats you up.
QUAKER RIDGE (1918) Like most of his designs this is on a great piece of property. He is beginning to design courses that can hold championships. It could hold any tournament, although it might need to be lengthened a bit. The greens have a lot of movement but don’t beat you up, unlike its neighbor.
BALTUSROL UPPER AND LOWER (1922) I will see how much we can attribute to Tilly on the Lower when I played in next month. When I have played it previously it is most RTJ and Rees. The Upper has more Tilly and great fun and did hole a US Open.

PHILLY CRICKET (1922) This was built out of his love for the club and has one of the most fun shots into greens of any of his designs. It doesn’t beat you up.

WINGED FOOT EAST AND WEST (1923) Just hard with some wild greens.


FIVE FARMS (Baltimore 1926) With SFGC this is my favorite course of his. It took a long time to build and he and the club had a strained relationship because of payments.

GOLDEN VALLEY (1926) An excellent club for members. It might not be one of his best but the members love it.

RIDGEWOOD (27 holes-1929) Another very good test that has held a Ryder Cup and a number of USGA championships.

Rochester? Got it Minnesota. Didn't think there were any around Rochester NY. I know he  did 9 holes at Oswego CC.

His son-in-law was a dr at the Mayo Clinic.

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