[Scott Warren]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4o5qdshC-g

This is one of the best pieces of golf course content I've ever watched.

I know some on here lament drones and their use in golf, but for mine this sums up the way a drone video can capture landforms in the macro better than anything else and with the help of sunrise or sunset can capture green contours in a way you never could from ground level or in a still image from any height.

It helps that Andy Johnson is one of the best at capturing drone shots that I've seen and combines it with the knowledge of architecture to choose the right shots.

Do yourself a favour - set aside seven minutes, click the link above and start looking at flights to Witchita.

[Michael Goldstein]

Thanks Scott - that is superb content right there.
For anyone that has played Prairie Dunes, would the layperson know the difference between the original & new green complexes?

[John Kavanaugh]

I was there the day this was shot. If Andy ever visits a club where you are a member do not approach him. You would have thought I went up to the Pope and asked to borrow a condom.

[Mark Mammel]

Thanks Scott - that is superb content right there.
For anyone that has played Prairie Dunes, would the layperson know the difference between the original & new green complexes?

Michael-The answer is no. I grew up in Hutchinson and learned to play at the Dunes. I've been back over the years, with many courses here and abroad in between. GCA educated me as to which were done by whom, and the Press greens are not as complex and the Perry greens. But the differences are subtle to me, as all are excellent. I'm sure there are those here that may claim the differences are obvious. They are the sommeliers of golf courses.

[Scott Warren]

Michael,


I've only logged four rounds at Prairie Dunes, but I think the likes of 11, 12, 13 and 16 (all Press holes) are among the best greens on the course and sit really comfortably alongside the Perry greens.

[Thomas Dai]

Haven't been there, unlikely ever too, but I've heard about PM's 'rolls' and the height the drone has filmed the relative close-ups of the greens from and the different angles chosen help appreciate the green complexes and the putting surface contours and why they're described as they are.
An aside, by comparison to the kind of gear Perry had when he built the original-9 what kind of equipment did Press have access too when he built the further-9?

atb

[PCCraig]

Thanks Scott - that is superb content right there.
For anyone that has played Prairie Dunes, would the layperson know the difference between the original & new green complexes?

Michael-The answer is no. I grew up in Hutchinson and learned to play at the Dunes. I've been back over the years, with many courses here and abroad in between. GCA educated me as to which were done by whom, and the Press greens are not as complex and the Perry greens. But the differences are subtle to me, as all are excellent. I'm sure there are those here that may claim the differences are obvious. They are the sommeliers of golf courses.

I think people get too hung up on which 9 are original and which were added years later. I guess there are subtle differences but taken as a whole you wouldn't be able to walk to a tee and say "oh we're on another *new* hole." It's all good (except for the 8th, which I just don't get!) 

[Mike Nuzzo]

I was there the day this was shot. If Andy ever visits a club where you are a member do not approach him. You would have thought I went up to the Pope and asked to borrow a condom.

or it would be as if entering the cockpit to say hi to the pilot while landing... or saying bye to the director during the filming of the final scene
 

[Jeff_Brauer]

I think the holes look the same, with some of the tee to green done by Press even being superior by a smidge, but I can tell the Press greens are softer in general.


The drone shots brought one question to mind, although I played there last fall and I didn't notice it on the ground.  A few shots look like the fw was cut through the dunes and almost left too flattish, with no semblance of the rolls present on no. 8.  I would need to take a look at Chris Clouser's book, but off hand, are there any comments about how that came to be.

[Brad Lawrence]

I find any drone views of a golf course to be nearly worthless. It’s a trend that I want to see vanish immediately. I’m only interested in the sight lines from the players’ perspective. 

[Jason Thurman]

Having been fortunate to visit Prairie Dunes a couple times, I agree the footage really reveals the course beautifully.


I'm compelled by two seemingly-contrasting statements that I find resonant:

• I believe it's in the new Confidential Guide that Tom Doak said something to the effect of "It's possible that none of the Press holes would make the course's Top 9."
• In the video, someone says "The Press 9 might be the best 9 holes built between 1950 and 1980, anywhere."

That, to me, highlights one of the amazing things about Prairie Dunes. Knowing the course's evolution, comparing the two 9s is inevitable. But when playing it, I find it totally feels like a single, whole 18. I think it probably has the best worst hole of any course I've ever played. And I have no clue what the worst hole out there is, or the best hole. Architecturally, I find the course virtually perfect with one of the world's great sets of greens and about as many all-world holes as any course can dish (My list: 2, 3, 6, 8, 10, 12, 17). Although... the gunsch knocks it down a few spots in my book. The place is TOUGH!

[Kurt Everett]

I think people get too hung up on which 9 are original and which were added years later. I guess there are subtle differences but taken as a whole you wouldn't be able to walk to a tee and say "oh we're on another *new* hole." It's all good (except for the 8th, which I just don't get!) 



Agree with all of this.  My great grandad founded Prairie Dunes so I've played it many times, and I've never got hung up on what holes were by what Maxwell.  Though 8 is a great hole, it gets too much credit.  There's plenty of holes I like far better

[Kalen Braley]

I find any drone views of a golf course to be nearly worthless. It’s a trend that I want to see vanish immediately. I’m only interested in the sight lines from the players’ perspective.

I can understand that,

But I'm guessing the audience for most drone shots (of golf courses at least) are those who will likely never set foot on it...

[Bill Seitz]

I can understand that,

But I'm guessing the audience for most drone shots (of golf courses at least) are those who will likely never set foot on it...

I kind of think the drone stuff is a little more boring when the shots are of a course with which I'm unfamiliar.  I liked watching this a lot more having been to PD than I probably would have if I'd never been there, largely because I could pretty easily pick out which hole was which. 

I almost certainly could not have told you which holes were Perry and which were Press if I hadn't been told.  I think you'd have to probably have better than a layman's knowledge of how courses are built to tell the difference.  It really flows nicely.  I guess the back nine routing as it goes away from the clubhouse is a bit of a giveaway, but those holes don't "feel" different, aside from the trees on 12 and 15.

I was there the day this was shot. If Andy ever visits a club where you are a member do not approach him. You would have thought I went up to the Pope and asked to borrow a condom.

That's a shame.  I like Andy's podcasts and other content, but it's harder to like that stuff if the person producing it isn't likable.  I've never met him, so couldn't say for sure. 

[John Kavanaugh]

I was at fault. I overstepped my bounds. I’m sorry for my behavior that day. (It’s the members duty to make a celebrity feel at home) I wish Andy all the best.

[Chris Clouser]

Jeff Brauer,


I think the simple explanation is that the ripples that you see on 8 and 9 just don't exist throughout the course.  It isn't even a Press/Perry issue.  From my memory of over a decade ago, 7 is relatively flat, 6 is flat in the second half.  On the back, 11, 12, 14 all seem relatively flat by comparison.  But I think 8 is one of those holes that is a freak of nature.  Perry routed that across the ripples in the land as opposed to playing along some of the large dunes like he did on some other holes.  But like I said, it has been a while since I was out there so my memory might be a little flawed.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Chris,


Thanks for checking in on this.  I looked at the videos again, and I do think some fw corridors are close to natural, that he routed them in the valleys, and perhaps just softened some of the rolls.


Holes like 12 and 13 are probably pretty close to natural grade, as the natural mounds to the sides are much lower.  17 may be a mix of both, because the mounds do seem naturally lower on the left.


I think if you look at the 5th hole, and you see large dunes left and right, and a flat fw, probably reduced in cross slope to hold balls on the fw (and from last fall, I still trickled off right) and it seems clear to me he sent those horses in a pretty straight line to make that hole playable, and didn't really consider that grading to be artwork. Is is possible that someone had the idea that this w (and maybe a few others) needed some leveling after the fact?


I have told the story before, but when I routed a new nine holes for them in 1985 (and looking at that video, that land looks even sharper than where they built the course) I discussed the 12th green with the committee, which shouldn't be changed, but on the other hand, probably could be, as some members were complaining about it's severity.  So, we called Press, and asked him about it, and after some silence, replied something to the effect that we could bulldoze it, because he never liked that green.


Just a great course, and hearing the gca's focusing so much on the greens in that video, I started thinking it would be interesting to focus on the rest!

[PCCraig]

I was there the day this was shot. If Andy ever visits a club where you are a member do not approach him. You would have thought I went up to the Pope and asked to borrow a condom.

That's a shame.  I like Andy's podcasts and other content, but it's harder to like that stuff if the person producing it isn't likable.  I've never met him, so couldn't say for sure. 

Bill -


I can assure you that John is way off base. I've spent some time with Andy and find him to be a very enjoyable, informative, and appreciative person. My guess is that you would enjoy his company very much.

[Jon Sweet]

I was at fault. I overstepped my bounds. I’m sorry for my behavior that day. (It’s the members duty to make a celebrity feel at home) I wish Andy all the best.

The Pope for a condom line was pretty impressive. Bravo. The interactions I’ve had with him on social media have been reasonable.

[Andy Johnson]

I'm glad you guys enjoy the video. It was really fun to put it together and easy given all the expert commentary on the podcast over the years about Prairie Dunes.

John - your pope joke made me laugh out loud, very good.

With regards to our interaction that day, I have to say I was a bit surprised when you introduced yourself to me given the multitude of disparaging comments you had made in my direction on this board over the years, so apologies for not being overly-enthused to meet you.

I was there the day this was shot. If Andy ever visits a club where you are a member do not approach him. You would have thought I went up to the Pope and asked to borrow a condom.

Furthermore - Garrett, who was also there that day and still hasn't been approved as a member of this board, had this to say about the interaction.

"I remember that interaction. He stopped our group—Andy, me, Mike Pettit, and Mike Cocking—as we were walking from the 18th green up to the clubhouse. John completely ignored everyone but Andy. The two Mikes and I just stood there awkwardly. Andy tried to introduce us to John, but John barely looked at us. My recollection is that Andy was pretty friendly and that John was the one who had no interest in conversing with the plebes (even though, hilariously, one of the most talented current golf architects was standing right there)."

I appreciate you bringing this up as I have learned that I need to be more welcoming no matter what someone has said about me online.

Next time, I will be sure to give you a King's Welcome!
Andy

[John Kavanaugh]

Hilarious. Thanks.

[Kurt Everett]

I was there the day this was shot. If Andy ever visits a club where you are a member do not approach him. You would have thought I went up to the Pope and asked to borrow a condom.

That's a shame.  I like Andy's podcasts and other content, but it's harder to like that stuff if the person producing it isn't likable.  I've never met him, so couldn't say for sure. 

Bill -


I can assure you that John is way off base. I've spent some time with Andy and find him to be a very enjoyable, informative, and appreciative person. My guess is that you would enjoy his company very much.

Andy has been nothing but nice to me.  I really enjoy his product and hope he continues to build his brand.
The condom line is an all-timer though..can't wait to use it.

[Bill Seitz]

Bill -

I can assure you that John is way off base. I've spent some time with Andy and find him to be a very enjoyable, informative, and appreciative person. My guess is that you would enjoy his company very much.

Good to hear, Pat.  I should know to take Jaka with a few grains of salt.  Andy, no hard feelings. I can somewhat relate to my initial introduction to Mr. Kavanaugh being possibly the most unique experience I've had among GCAers.

[Ryan Hillenbrand]

I think people get too hung up on which 9 are original and which were added years later. I guess there are subtle differences but taken as a whole you wouldn't be able to walk to a tee and say "oh we're on another *new* hole." It's all good (except for the 8th, which I just don't get!) 



Agree with all of this.  My great grandad founded Prairie Dunes so I've played it many times, and I've never got hung up on what holes were by what Maxwell.  Though 8 is a great hole, it gets too much credit.  There's plenty of holes I like far better

I agree Kurt. 8 gets so much love but I find many of the holes I get most excited to play are the Press holes, particularly 3, 11, 12 and 14.


The book, Perry Maxwell's Prairie Dunes, is highly recommended for anyone wanting to learn about the course's history and interesting facts. A few I found amazing is that the greens only have about 1/3 of their surface that is pinnable, and they never use a Stimpmeter because there isn't enough flat area to gauge a reading

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