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Kalen Braley

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Re: Worst strategic ideas you have heard from golfers?
« Reply #50 on: August 12, 2021, 01:06:55 PM »
Given most other forms of playing Defense in golf are prohibited, like stepping on their ball or kicking it over the OB line..

I think the stymie sounds like a good idea.  In head to head play why should the course be the only one allowed to implement some D?

Marty Bonnar

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Re: Worst strategic ideas you have heard from golfers?
« Reply #51 on: August 12, 2021, 02:44:16 PM »
"Hey, wouldnt it be cool if we made a dogleg right hole that forced you to hit a blind tee shot over a hotel?"


"Nah, maybe for a minnie golf course, but that idea would be ridiculed."


 ;D ;D


Except it was a railway yard.
 ;D
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Worst strategic ideas you have heard from golfers?
« Reply #52 on: August 12, 2021, 05:09:17 PM »
I never understood the strategy behind the stymie. It is one thing to end up blocking an opponent's shot and another to do it purposely. If you are that good to block another why not just go ahead and make it? What am I missing?

A stymie is more about luck than anything else. That said, you can plan your putt to have the possibility of styming someone should you miss. I do it a lot when the opponent is on the other side of the hole from me. Play stymies fairly often in winter. It's an added element of fun to remind me that golf is a game.

Ciao

Golf is a sport that has games.

Golf is a game that has different ways to keep score.

Ciao
« Last Edit: August 12, 2021, 05:14:13 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Kyle Harris

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Re: Worst strategic ideas you have heard from golfers?
« Reply #53 on: August 12, 2021, 08:34:16 PM »

Kyle Harris,


I'm very sorry that you misunderstood what I wrote, I in fact have very much enjoyed playing Stymies and encourage you to try them as well.  ;)


But of course I know you fully understood what I wrote. Your curt and BS attitude on the subject clearly illustrates that you are less than interested in trying something "new" and exploring an interesting and unique part of the game's history. Remember, Stymies were in play a lot longer than they've been out of play.


Sorry someone beat you with a Stymie sometime back in your youth and you've held onto that resentment ever since.


Ben,


The stymie adds nothing to the Sporting element of golf and is overly game-y. The fact that a stroke could be played without the purpose of either holing out or increasing one’s chances of holing out is both antithetical to the purpose of golf and also why the stymie was rightfully eliminated.


Sounds like you should take up snooker.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

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Kyle Harris

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Re: Worst strategic ideas you have heard from golfers?
« Reply #54 on: August 12, 2021, 08:37:14 PM »
Given most other forms of playing Defense in golf are prohibited, like stepping on their ball or kicking it over the OB line..

I think the stymie sounds like a good idea.  In head to head play why should the course be the only one allowed to implement some D?


Because golf isn’t about defense. It’s about your ability to hole out against another’s ability to hole out.


Impeding another’s progress is directly against the ethic of the sport.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Jon Sweet

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Re: Worst strategic ideas you have heard from golfers?
« Reply #55 on: August 12, 2021, 08:43:54 PM »
Heard the head pro of a course tell me trees shouldn’t ever dictate strategy on a hole.


Depends on the tree.


Ciao
Have a longish 4. There was a tree roughly 70 to 80 yards off the tee box that pinched in from the right. You couldn’t stand up there and hit a huge bleeding cut.
Now, towards about the 120 out mark you have a tree down the right side in the rough. Large tree roughly 80 to 120 feet tall give or take. If you’re on the right side of the fairway you’ll need to go around it left of right.
Very tough hole visually for a cutter of the ball but if you can hit a draw it looks like a launching pad.
Ended up taking the tree out on the left and now you can just slap dick whatever out there. Totally ruined the hole.

Garland Bayley

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Re: Worst strategic ideas you have heard from golfers?
« Reply #56 on: August 12, 2021, 08:52:07 PM »
"As in the rest of the game you play your shot to the best of your ability. In the case of the stymie if you fail you should not rather blame your own lack of skill than rush to the childlike conclusion that there is something unfair or unjust about your failure?"

A. V. Macan
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Worst strategic ideas you have heard from golfers?
« Reply #57 on: August 12, 2021, 09:01:27 PM »
In eliminating the stymie you incidentally remove a large part of the finesse of the game much of which takes place on the green; you reduce the problems that are incidents of the game that match player delights in; you cut out some opportunities to the fighter to show his qualities; some opportunities to the fighter to show his qualities; some opportunities for the clever player to profit by the exercise of his judgement. You reduce the art of putting to a dull mechanical exercise."

A. V. Macan

Personal note: Part of what makes TV golf so uninspiring is the vast quantity of this "dull mechanical exercise."

Broadie note: Putting is the least important aspect of the game. Amateurs perform nearly as well as pros at this "dull mechanical exercise."
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Worst strategic ideas you have heard from golfers?
« Reply #58 on: August 12, 2021, 09:05:29 PM »
"The game of golf is like life; the greater the difficulties presented to you the greater the joy in overcoming them. Why should we expel from the game one of the most beautiful and delicate shots?"

A. V. Macan

PS Tommy Williamson is a heretic by his own admission. ;D
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jon Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Worst strategic ideas you have heard from golfers?
« Reply #59 on: August 12, 2021, 10:48:03 PM »
Heard the head pro of a course tell me trees shouldn’t ever dictate strategy on a hole.


Depends on the tree.


Ciao
Have a longish 4. There was a tree roughly 70 to 80 yards off the tee box that pinched in from the right. You couldn’t stand up there and hit a huge bleeding cut.
Now, towards about the 120 out mark you have a tree down the right side in the rough. Large tree roughly 80 to 120 feet tall give or take. If you’re on the right side of the fairway you’ll need to go around it left of right.
Very tough hole visually for a cutter of the ball but if you can hit a draw it looks like a launching pad.
Ended up taking the tree out on the left and now you can just slap dick whatever out there. Totally ruined the hole.
Excuse me, tree on left that pinched in from the left towards the right. Sort of blocked a portion of the left side of that fairway

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Worst strategic ideas you have heard from golfers?
« Reply #60 on: August 13, 2021, 12:54:59 AM »
Given most other forms of playing Defense in golf are prohibited, like stepping on their ball or kicking it over the OB line..

I think the stymie sounds like a good idea.  In head to head play why should the course be the only one allowed to implement some D?

Because golf isn’t about defense. It’s about your ability to hole out against another’s ability to hole out.

Impeding another’s progress is directly against the ethic of the sport.

The ethic of the sport is defined by the rules. Change the rules and the ethic changes. Are you telling me that all those great golfers for all those years were unethical?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Worst strategic ideas you have heard from golfers?
« Reply #61 on: August 13, 2021, 08:12:06 AM »
Given most other forms of playing Defense in golf are prohibited, like stepping on their ball or kicking it over the OB line..

I think the stymie sounds like a good idea.  In head to head play why should the course be the only one allowed to implement some D?

Because golf isn’t about defense. It’s about your ability to hole out against another’s ability to hole out.

Impeding another’s progress is directly against the ethic of the sport.

The ethic of the sport is defined by the rules. Change the rules and the ethic changes. Are you telling me that all those great golfers for all those years were unethical?

Ciao


The sport of golf only has a handful of rules and only two that really govern the few remaining:

1: Play the course as you find it
2: Don't touch your ball until it's in the hole

The games of golf introduce all manner of other rules which create tension between players. The stymie lies strictly within this context. You could make the argument that touching your ball to mark and remove the stymie for another player is against Rule 2 above but I would counter with the rule that farthest away must play first is only related to the game of golf and not the sport and therefore can be superseded.

Rule 1 really dominates the conversation, though. Playing the course as you find it does not include competitor's golf balls. Unless you want to make an argument that they are integral parts of the course!
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Thomas Dai

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Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Worst strategic ideas you have heard from golfers?
« Reply #63 on: August 13, 2021, 09:24:38 AM »
Given most other forms of playing Defense in golf are prohibited, like stepping on their ball or kicking it over the OB line..

I think the stymie sounds like a good idea.  In head to head play why should the course be the only one allowed to implement some D?

Because golf isn’t about defense. It’s about your ability to hole out against another’s ability to hole out.

Impeding another’s progress is directly against the ethic of the sport.

The ethic of the sport is defined by the rules. Change the rules and the ethic changes. Are you telling me that all those great golfers for all those years were unethical?

Ciao

The sport of golf only has a handful of rules and only two that really govern the few remaining:

1: Play the course as you find it
2: Don't touch your ball until it's in the hole

The games of golf introduce all manner of other rules which create tension between players. The stymie lies strictly within this context. You could make the argument that touching your ball to mark and remove the stymie for another player is against Rule 2 above but I would counter with the rule that farthest away must play first is only related to the game of golf and not the sport and therefore can be superseded.

Rule 1 really dominates the conversation, though. Playing the course as you find it does not include competitor's golf balls. Unless you want to make an argument that they are integral parts of the course!

Interesting take on the rules...double dutch if I ever heard it.  When I crack open the book there a few more than two rules. Are you saying the stymie was never included in the rules?

https://www.usga.org/articles/2016/07/rules-throwback--tough-putt--try-being-stymied.html

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Worst strategic ideas you have heard from golfers?
« Reply #64 on: August 13, 2021, 09:35:58 AM »
Given most other forms of playing Defense in golf are prohibited, like stepping on their ball or kicking it over the OB line..

I think the stymie sounds like a good idea.  In head to head play why should the course be the only one allowed to implement some D?

Because golf isn’t about defense. It’s about your ability to hole out against another’s ability to hole out.

Impeding another’s progress is directly against the ethic of the sport.

The ethic of the sport is defined by the rules. Change the rules and the ethic changes. Are you telling me that all those great golfers for all those years were unethical?

Ciao

The sport of golf only has a handful of rules and only two that really govern the few remaining:

1: Play the course as you find it
2: Don't touch your ball until it's in the hole

The games of golf introduce all manner of other rules which create tension between players. The stymie lies strictly within this context. You could make the argument that touching your ball to mark and remove the stymie for another player is against Rule 2 above but I would counter with the rule that farthest away must play first is only related to the game of golf and not the sport and therefore can be superseded.

Rule 1 really dominates the conversation, though. Playing the course as you find it does not include competitor's golf balls. Unless you want to make an argument that they are integral parts of the course!

Interesting take on the rules...double dutch if I ever heard it.  When I crack open the book there a few more than two rules. Are you saying the stymie was never included in the rules?

https://www.usga.org/articles/2016/07/rules-throwback--tough-putt--try-being-stymied.html

Ciao


Of course not.


I’m saying it was removed with good reason and those are among the reasons.


Perhaps crack open a Richard Tufts book…


https://www.amazon.com/Principles-Behind-Rules-Golf/dp/B00DUVRGKS
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Worst strategic ideas you have heard from golfers?
« Reply #65 on: August 13, 2021, 09:38:50 AM »
Double Dutch?


The difference between sport and game has long been at the essence of golf. Play your stymies in your GAMES but the spirit of the SPORT is to hole out in the most efficient manner possible.


If you can’t wrap your head around the difference we’re just going to sit here and exchange barbs.


Ironic, to me, because of all the people on this board I figured you’d be the one to most embrace golf as a sporting venture and not a game-y one.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Niall C

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Re: Worst strategic ideas you have heard from golfers?
« Reply #66 on: August 13, 2021, 09:44:06 AM »
Perhaps it's the revisionist history he's not embracing ?

Niall

Ben Hollerbach

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Re: Worst strategic ideas you have heard from golfers?
« Reply #67 on: August 13, 2021, 09:44:24 AM »
Golf, holistically, is a game.


The act of hitting a golf ball may be a sporting activity, but to play golf is the pursuit of playing a game. The nature of the course, the ever changing elements, the strategy in how one chooses to try and negotiate the obstacles of the course, their attempted execution of said strategy & technique are all game elements. The sporting elements of golf can all be experienced without the confines of the course, but the strategic game elements of golf can not.


Within the game of golf exits a multitude of variants that may make the actual execution more or less game like. From the simplest view, two such variants would be stroke play vs. match play, with match play being a heightened game experience and stroke play having a little more of a sporting lean.


While stroke play may directly limit playing interaction between two players, match play does not. In fact it centers the play of the match within that relationship. The specific order of play that must be followed and the ability to concede shots to one's opponent are both examples of facets within game play that are explicitly defined in the rules. Neither directly impact one's play or physically limit an opponents ability to score, Their ability to swing and strike their ball has not been hampered, the impact is felt psychologically and can have a tremendous influence on their execution. Pure elements of a game.


A technique you will often see in match play is for one player to lay back off of the tee in order to play their approach shot first. Knowing that if they hit a strong approach shot close to the hole, the placement of their ball could increase the pressure felt by their opponent and potentially cause a poor approach by their opponent. Rather than fully maximizing their scoring potential off of the tee, their strategy was to minimize their opponents in order to gain an advantage on the hole.


The same could be said for conceding a short putt early in the round and forcing your opponent to make the same length putt latter in the round. Another common strategy within match play and a clear element of game play.


If playing the game of golf in this manor is not sporting enough what should we do? Forbit match play? Force everyone to play as singles, keeping influence between players in a vacuum and tally up the match at the end? How boring would the Ryder Cup be if gamesmanship wasn't involved?

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Worst strategic ideas you have heard from golfers?
« Reply #68 on: August 13, 2021, 10:04:51 AM »
Ben:


Rule #1 in “How to lose in Match Play” is “expect your opponent to mess up.”


Name one match that isn’t won by holing out in fewer strokes than your opponent.


Who the hell plays a match where the strategy is anything other than maximizing your scoring potential?


Golf is not holistically a game at all. Else you couldn’t play it alone. Are you suggesting that when one puts a ball in play from the first tee they MUST play one of golf’s games?


You do understand that if golf were holistically a game then there would thousands of rules which cover all manner of *ahem* unfair situations?
« Last Edit: August 13, 2021, 10:08:48 AM by Kyle Harris »
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Ben Hollerbach

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Re: Worst strategic ideas you have heard from golfers?
« Reply #69 on: August 13, 2021, 11:05:57 AM »
Kyle,


Do you believe that all games require an opponent?


At any point in time have you began a round of golf with a goal in mind? Adversely, have you ever started a round of golf with absolutely zero goals or intentions in mind? If you ever play golf with any level of intent are you not using golf to play some sort of game?


Scoring potential in match play is not the same as scoring potential in stroke play. It is possible to win a hole not be holing the ball in fewer strokes than your opponent. You can also win a hole when your opponent holes their ball in more strokes than you. There is a clear distinction between the two.


Games don't need to be fair, it is often in the unfair where the interest lies.


Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Worst strategic ideas you have heard from golfers?
« Reply #70 on: August 13, 2021, 11:17:00 AM »
Kyle,

No response to Macan who calls your stance childish, and causing deskilling of the game?

Have to wonder if you have ever played a match with stymie in play.

Or, are you criticizing the course without playing it?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Worst strategic ideas you have heard from golfers?
« Reply #71 on: August 13, 2021, 11:20:54 AM »

Who the hell plays a match where the strategy is anything other than maximizing your scoring potential?

I do. When my opponent tees off first and knocks a ball out of bounds you can bet I'm going to be less aggressive, keep the ball in play and settle for taking a shot more on the hole if it means I'm more likely to win it.

Niall

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Worst strategic ideas you have heard from golfers?
« Reply #72 on: August 13, 2021, 11:24:00 AM »
Ben Hollerbach,


Correct, in most senses but you're also interchanging sport and game and they are very different for the purposes of what I am discussing, especially as it pertains to the rules.

The SPORT of golf is to simply maneuver a golf ball from Point A to B. You do this by playing a stroke and that is the ONLY way by which you may advance the golf ball.


Every layer from here on out adds a game element to it. Want to compare how you do that over the course of a several holes? That's Stroke Play. Want to compare each hole with another fellow player and see who can win the most holes? That's Match Play. Want to cap the scoring at 6 and then assign weighted points based on performance from hole to hole? Bingo, you got Stableford!


The stymie is definitely in the realm of the game aspect. In fact, it flies in the face of the sport aspect because an opponent's golf ball is NOT an integral part of the course. There is nothing in the SPORT of golf that says part of your maneuvering should consider an opponent.

Playing alone is more a measure of ability than it is a game since, even in economics, a game requires an opponent.

SPORT is *never* fair. Hunters don't cry that's it's unfair if their quarry moves in an unanticipated manner. The kayaker doesn't complain that the river is "unfair." They just go do it and if a course is beyond their abilities they move up a set of te... rather... they find an easier class of rapids.


Games, if they are to be interesting, are almost always regulated to be *more* fair. Take an athletic game such as American Gridiron Football, for instance. If it were a true sport, the fields of play would vary greatly. Out of bounds may be non-existant. Players could use whatever means necessary to impede their opponent, etc. But if this were the case the team that built a lead would simply give the ball to a marathon runner and it'd be game over. So we add boundaries, make arbitrary rules as to why and why not you may impede the other team in certain ways, etc. All to be more fair and to make the athletic challenges more interesting and balanced.

Baseball, too.... there are more rules governing what a pitcher may and may not do (so as to not give the pitcher an unfair advantage) than there are in the entire rule book of golf! And that is before ANY action happens on the baseball diamond. The Infield Fly Rule is one of the most game-y rules and it is there to make something MORE fair.

Golf also differs in the sense that, in order to proceed, a player MUST play a shot. Why must the player farthest from the hole play first in competition? That's completely arbitrary and works just as well the other way around.... that's a rule of the GAME but it does not effect the SPORT.

To take your playing alone comparison into proper context... when you go hiking, or kayaking, or other things for SPORT, do you have a goal in mind? Are you hiking for time? Duration? Or are you there, as the adage goes, because it's there?


Furthermore, it is only possible to win a hole in match play by not holing out in fewer strokes than your opponent when your opponent does something procedure-wise to disqualify them from the hole - which coincidentally - is a GAME rule.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Worst strategic ideas you have heard from golfers?
« Reply #73 on: August 13, 2021, 11:26:42 AM »
Kyle,

No response to Macan who calls your stance childish, and causing deskilling of the game?

Have to wonder if you have ever played a match with stymie in play.

Or, are you criticizing the course without playing it?


I have. It never came up.

I suppose you could call many changes that have improved the overall nature of golf as "deskilling" the game.

Would Mr. Macan be in the deep rough/narrow fairway camp so that the tee ball added a specific skill to the game?

Let's have the courses dictate what is and is not skill and not the opponent. Which is kind of the point here. Actually, not kind of... it IS the point.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Worst strategic ideas you have heard from golfers?
« Reply #74 on: August 13, 2021, 11:27:44 AM »

Who the hell plays a match where the strategy is anything other than maximizing your scoring potential?

I do. When my opponent tees off first and knocks a ball out of bounds you can bet I'm going to be less aggressive, keep the ball in play and settle for taking a shot more on the hole if it means I'm more likely to win it.

Niall


Fair play.

So you continue to play less aggressively once the OB is no longer a factor? Cozying that 10 foot putt up to kick in range, then?
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

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