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Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
“Fast greens and fantastic conditions”
« on: August 05, 2021, 04:34:43 PM »
I’m a member - and occasional contributor - to a couple of golf-oriented groups on Facebook (yes, I know!)
Time after time after time, people post their thoughts about the course they’ve just played and the phrase above is almost ubiquitously the chosen level of criticism displayed.
I keep thinking either I’m a total golf snob or the average Joe just doesn’t give a shit (or have a clue or even a need to know?) about things like strategic design, historical context, templates, design philosophy, landscape integration….hang on, I think I’ve just answered my own question!
Do the golf design intelligentsia even matter when GOLFERS just want ‘fast greens and fantastic conditions’?
F.

The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Fast greens and fantastic conditions”
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2021, 04:40:23 PM »
We've already changed the world here, Martin.  Way more than I could have ever imagined back in year 2000 or so.


Most just will never know it or care to.   That's probably ok as most of the young guys I know really, really get it and will carry on in our dinosaur footprints.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: “Fast greens and fantastic conditions”
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2021, 04:45:46 PM »
Marty:


The only real question is if we are having influence on what gets built.  And I think I have!


That said, the fast greens crowd has a lot of influence, too, and we are on something of a collision course.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Fast greens and fantastic conditions”
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2021, 05:01:17 PM »
Two groups that in general don’t seem to keen on faster and faster putting surfaces are ladies and older men.
As I understand it more women seem to be taking up the game and folks are living longer and are continuing to play into later age. Will there be a pushback at some stage especially as committees at private members clubs usually comprise men from the higher age group and representatives of the ladies section?
Likely cost issues might come into play as well. Faster speeds generally seem to require more time, effort and inputs and these all cost £ and £ usually comes from members subscriptions.
Atb

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Fast greens and fantastic conditions”
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2021, 05:34:58 PM »
Two groups that in general don’t seem to keen on faster and faster putting surfaces are ladies and older men.
As I understand it more women seem to be taking up the game and folks are living longer and are continuing to play into later age. Will there be a pushback at some stage especially as committees at private members clubs usually comprise men from the higher age group and representatives of the ladies section?
Likely cost issues might come into play as well. Faster speeds generally seem to require more time, effort and inputs and these all cost £ and £ usually comes from members subscriptions.
Atb


And subsequently every year we have another version of the inevitable "tough to grow and maintain grass (at 1 billionth of an inch)" and "impossible putts"" threads along with another rebuild of Muirfield Village.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2021, 05:38:51 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Fast greens and fantastic conditions”
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2021, 07:42:45 PM »
Mike is spot on.  This site and all those who have been passionate contributors have definitely made a difference particularly with those who design/build/maintain/change,… golf courses.  I still believe as I said almost 20 years ago on this site that 99% of golfers could care less or won’t understand what we are often talking about here (just had this exact same discussion the other night in a committee meeting) but the few that we have influenced and help changed their perspectives has helped make a difference in the world of golf course design. 

Brad Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Fast greens and fantastic conditions”
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2021, 09:45:15 PM »
I asked a golfing buddy how he rates golf courses. He said 100% conditioning. I barely factor conditioning in, though I do think the faster and firmer, the better. 


 Some of the courses that I love that are unique and quirky are the ones people hate. That boring junk that’s “right out in front of you” is what so many like. I don’t get it.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Fast greens and fantastic conditions”
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2021, 12:35:23 AM »
Marty:


The only real question is if we are having influence on what gets built.  And I think I have!


That said, the fast greens crowd has a lot of influence, too, and we are on something of a collision course.


and make no mistake, greens are faster than they were in 2000.
This includes the places here that were already fast, the second tier clubs as well and courses across the pond which had the most room to speed up.
In very few cases has the condition of the turf or the experience been better.





"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jim Sherma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Fast greens and fantastic conditions”
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2021, 02:26:39 PM »
Agree with Jeff that pretty much everything is marginally faster over the past 20 years. However it's the quality of the second tier privates and public courses that have really seen significant improvements. I've played more public courses in the past few months than I have for quite a while and it is striking how good many of their greens are these days, both in terms of speed and smoothness. There used to be a significant step up in surface quality going from publics to getting onto one of the nicer private clubs. These days the privates are likely a little smoother and running and a little faster, but it's not nearly the gulf that it used to be. A lot of it is likely a function of simply getting more play.

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Fast greens and fantastic conditions”
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2021, 09:29:20 PM »
Agree with Jeff that pretty much everything is marginally faster over the past 20 years. However it's the quality of the second tier privates and public courses that have really seen significant improvements. I've played more public courses in the past few months than I have for quite a while and it is striking how good many of their greens are these days, both in terms of speed and smoothness. There used to be a significant step up in surface quality going from publics to getting onto one of the nicer private clubs. These days the privates are likely a little smoother and running and a little faster, but it's not nearly the gulf that it used to be. A lot of it is likely a function of simply getting more play.


I wonder how much this lack of a difference did driving some of the absolute batty behavior you see in regard to maintenance practices at the private. Hard to stand out when everyone is now as good as you.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Fast greens and fantastic conditions”
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2021, 09:52:25 PM »
My guess is the majority of golfers that play muni's want decent conditions and little more, and private club members want fast greens and great conditions...and little more.  Anything else...strategy, design...etc, gets in the way.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Fast greens and fantastic conditions”
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2021, 11:07:50 PM »
Most golfers prefer firm and fast conditions and while I think that many prefer green fairways, etc. but they also care about how golfers take care of the course; do they rake the bunkers, do they repair ball marks on greens, to they replace/fill divots.  Those are things which make the game more enjoyable. 


What I wonder is how many really appreciate why conditioning has changed so much.  I think much of it has come from golfers, members, and owners beginning to listen to those who have been preaching about air circulation and how much that contributes to the ability to keep the courses firm and fast.  I just played the Blue Course at Congressional which has hosted many majors and regular tour stops on the PGA Tour and will host a future PGA and the 2037 Ryder Cup.  It was a beautiful parkland course with pine trees planted throughout and certainly gave you the feeling of each hole being totally separate from the rest of the course which was the object back in the 1950s - 1970s. The course was closed for two years for renovations and the transformation is amazing.  There are virtually no trees left on the course - when I first saw it I thought I was looking at Erin Hills.  The course is magnificent and I hope it is well received. It hasn't had time to firm up and the long grasses planted beyond the rough are still thin but give it a little time and it will hopefully open the eyes of many other courses to follow the example.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Fast greens and fantastic conditions”
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2021, 01:50:46 AM »
I don't know, maybe I am in a tighter bubble than most. I think aesthetics have now become probably more important than conditioning, although the two are somewhat related.

I haven't noticed GB&I green speeds being terrible fast. Maybe a bit faster than 2010, but not overly fast. I think parkland greens have seen the most improvement.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ben Hollerbach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Fast greens and fantastic conditions”
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2021, 07:56:33 AM »
When paired with random "retail" golfers across the years the one thing they almost all have in common is little knowledge in how a course gets to the state they're playing it that day.


From the routing, construction, and drainage, to grass type ,maintenance practices, and recent weather impact; they use little of it in assessing the course.


For country clubs, I believe there is value in education among the members as to why things are done a certain way. The Super at my last club was really good at this and built a group of member advocates to help spread his vision.


At public courses you don't have the luxury of expected and consistent repeat play. Each round has to sell the next and there is little chance for education of the player. In this case the best practice is to tell a bunch of white lies.


While Stimp numbers have become all to common today they also are misunderstood  by too many, especially how a measurement taken in one place on the property does not mean every putt on every slope on every green will roll the same way.


Greenskeepers would probably be better off cutting the greens to a height they are comfortable with and can keep to a consistent smoothness, then posting a Stimp reading 2-2.5 feet higher to appease to those Stimp speed freaks.


As long as the ball rolls well, the player would never know, and would probably be all to happy to brag to their friends about how well they putted on some courses lighting fast greens.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Fast greens and fantastic conditions”
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2021, 08:30:51 AM »
I’m a member - and occasional contributor - to a couple of golf-oriented groups on Facebook (yes, I know!)
Time after time after time, people post their thoughts about the course they’ve just played and the phrase above is almost ubiquitously the chosen level of criticism displayed.
I keep thinking either I’m a total golf snob or the average Joe just doesn’t give a shit (or have a clue or even a need to know?) about things like strategic design, historical context, templates, design philosophy, landscape integration….hang on, I think I’ve just answered my own question!
Do the golf design intelligentsia even matter when GOLFERS just want ‘fast greens and fantastic conditions’?
F.
Adrian Stiff has been saying this for years. The GCA 'way' is a very minor opinion. To be a rater you have to join that club. The masses care for things the GCA gang don't care for. Painswick is the ultimate poster child. I have a corporate membership and I can't give it away.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Fast greens and fantastic conditions”
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2021, 09:06:38 AM »
I came across the following comment on a Facebook page this morning with regard to Silloth on Solway.


“Played it yesterday for the first time. What a fantastic golf course, fairways are a bit dry and brown but the greens and fringes are superb.”


Dry and brown? Of course they are - it’s a links course in August!


Silloth spent a fortune during lockdown on a new irrigation system covering all playing areas. I was a little worried that they’d use it liberally on the fairways . Happily they haven’t and the course is spectacularly brown.


Clearly some people don’t get it though!
« Last Edit: August 07, 2021, 09:09:01 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Fast greens and fantastic conditions”
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2021, 09:32:32 AM »



The greens are certainly faster but are they firmer?  Seems more than a few clubs (even the followers in the middle tier) have been growing higher rough.  And with higher rough we lose the "angle" argument.


Not sure it is chicken or egg but many places have fast soft greens and then grow high rough because the game is too easy.




Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Fast greens and fantastic conditions”
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2021, 10:00:44 AM »
Chrystal ball time …. will lack of easily available and inexpensive water ultimately result in more courses being brown and firm and bouncy, the kind of natural conditioning that many herein, me included, seem to have a preference for? I wonder?

Atb

Ben Hollerbach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Fast greens and fantastic conditions”
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2021, 10:21:54 AM »



The greens are certainly faster but are they firmer?  Seems more than a few clubs (even the followers in the middle tier) have been growing higher rough.  And with higher rough we lose the "angle" argument.


Not sure it is chicken or egg but many places have fast soft greens and then grow high rough because the game is too easy.


Soft greens negate angles. High rough heightens them. Shrinks the margin of execution.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: “Fast greens and fantastic conditions”
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2021, 02:37:50 PM »
My guess is the majority of golfers that play muni's want decent conditions and little more, and private club members want fast greens and great conditions...and little more.  Anything else...strategy, design...etc, gets in the way.


Maybe, but if a lot of courses are now providing good conditions, don't they have to go to other factors to decide where they want to play?


I think people go back to courses they enjoy, even if they can't articulate why they enjoy them.  And design is one thing that can help them enjoy the course.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Fast greens and fantastic conditions”
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2021, 03:32:02 PM »
I'm probably an outlier on here and perhaps I qualify to be a rater, but I don 't really see a down side to good conditioning, certainly not in a UK context, as long as it is sustainable. What I mean by sustainable is that you aren't over stressing the greens and that you can afford to do what you do.


And to touch on Tom D's point, good conditioning helps to highlight the design and thereby make the course more fun.


Niall

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Fast greens and fantastic conditions”
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2021, 04:00:06 PM »
Somewhere there’s likely a fine grey line between good conditioning and OTT manicured? 80-20 rule and all that?
Where that fine grey line lies however, is perhaps not so easy to spot. Maybe its location even varies depending on the type of terrain, country, climate, expectations, £$ available etc?

Atb

Peter Pallotta

Re: “Fast greens and fantastic conditions”
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2021, 04:22:41 PM »
It's hard to criticize someone who hasn't or hasn't often played courses featuring fantastic conditions and fast greens for valuing & celebrating such a course when he does get to play one, and feels it to be a special treat. And it's hard to blame any golfer (but especially a beginner) who is out to have fun and who might not yet have the skill-set to recognize and 'interface' with the architecture for appreciating instead the lush green fairways that are not only pleasing to his eye but also help him to make more solid contact and get the ball airborne.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Fast greens and fantastic conditions”
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2021, 10:18:19 AM »
Ten days ago my eldest son and I had a very enjoyable game on the Castle Course.  We both played well and were better than handicap (significantly, in my case).  The greens were really tricky but both fun and manageable, because they were not stupidly fast.  Being on the wrong part was a problem but not an insurmountable one.  Approaching greens we were both looking at the course book and working out where the smart leave was.  I don't suppose Cam has thought as hard about a round of golf for a long time.  My guess is that the greens were no more than 8.5.  At, say, 10, the game would have been very, very different and far less fun.  Listening to conversations afterwards in the clubhouse I didn't hear anyone complain about the speed of the greens, and most probably didn't notice that they were relatively slow.  I guess speed is relative.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Fast greens and fantastic conditions”
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2021, 01:07:55 PM »
Taking some slightly extreme positions as discussion points -
On the tee you can place the ball on a tee peg so the conditioning of the teeing ground shouldn’t matter.
On the fairway you can play preferred lies so conditioning shouldn’t matter.
Off the fairway you’re in the rough. The word ‘rough’ ought to indicate that the conditioning shouldn’t matter.
In a bunker, well it’s a hazard, so it should be properly hazardous and the conditioning shouldn’t matter.
On the green. Ah, well on the green, on the putting surface, you roll the ball along the ground so the smoothness, the trueness of the balls roll, should matter. Smoothness, trueness of roll, is not the same as speed though so conditioning for the sake of speed shouldn’t matter.
Blue touch paper lit!:)
Atb
« Last Edit: August 08, 2021, 01:09:46 PM by Thomas Dai »

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