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Tim_Weiman

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Ocean Course vs Whistling Straits
« on: November 17, 2003, 07:34:29 PM »
We've got several threads going on the Ocean Course, including one that speculates about the course possibly being selected to host a PGA Championship.

That got me to wonder how people compare the Ocean Course to Whistling Straits, a course that is already scheduled to host the PGA.

Which course do you like better? What makes one better than the other?

FYI, I've played each three times, but it has been a while so I'm reluctant to express too strong an opinion, except:

a) I recall liking the par 3s at Whistling Straits more
b) Whistling Straits seemed to have more interesting holes
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Tim Weiman

RJ_Daley

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Re:Ocean Course vs Whistling Straits
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2003, 07:49:22 PM »
Tim, good question to ask about courses I have always looked at as some sort of sister course relationship.  I think you are dead on about the better par 3s as a set at WS.  But, by the same token, I think TOC has better par 5s.  I can't say if the reported softening of green contours took interest out of TOC because I haven't seen new grades on greens.  I will give the nod to WS there however.  I also think that TOC may be more consistently good start to finish meaning that there are a couple of inferior holes at WS, to a minor degree. I don't think 1 is spectacular, and 5 is universally panned.  9 isn't too great in my view.  15 is so-so and 18 has never been embraced by anyone I know as too good of a design due to its somewhat radical ravine carry to the approach to an odd green and surrounds.  Of course it is an easy answer for me in winter as to which one I like! ::)

Also, I think that a bad maintence meld set-up can bring either course down a notch.  I didn't care for the soft approaches that I saw at TOC Sunday (I didn't see the other days)
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Will E

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Re:Ocean Course vs Whistling Straits
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2003, 08:09:02 PM »
I haven't seen TOC for a few years though had a conversation this weekend comparing it to WS. It's a lot like comparing PGA West to TPC SAwgrass. I'd agree with most of what Dick says, the 5s at TOC get the nod and the 3s at WS are world class. I like 1 and 15 at WS quite a bit though. Agree that 18 is a bit of mess where the 18th at TOC is stellar. Hope to do more research from the field soon.
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RJ_Daley

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Re:Ocean Course vs Whistling Straits
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2003, 08:16:17 PM »
It is darn good to hear from you Shooter.  Where have you been?  What seasons did you play TOC?  Did you see the tournament this week at TOC?  What say you about the soft approaches.  Does anyone think they might do something hinky with the set-up at the PGA at WS nex year like soften approaches and make it an aerial bombardment to firm greens causing more strays going off to side and rear hazards?  Will that be a way they will defend par.  I for one hope not...
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Jerry Kluger

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Re:Ocean Course vs Whistling Straits
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2003, 09:40:59 PM »
It is hard to find a better par 3 than 14 at TOC.  It is set at a wonderful angle bringing the wind dramatically into play and the horizon forms a backdrop which is truly memorable.  The 17th really makes you sweat but the hole itself is not unique.  
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Tim_Weiman

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Re:Ocean Course vs Whistling Straits
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2003, 11:59:53 PM »
Dick Daley:

I agree with most of your comments about Whistling Straits, but would probably rate the opening hole higher than you do. It just strikes me as a really good way to start a round of golf.

As for #5, that is a real disappointment and out of character with the rest of the course. I was told by folks on site that permitting authorities would not approve what Pete Dye had in mind, so we are left with something that just looks awkward.

As for the Ocean course, I was very excited to check it out when it opened and spent three day there - just like I did at Whistling Straits. But, for some reason I'm not so anxious to return despite my love for Charleston. Something is missing, I think, but I just can't put my finger on it.

Jerry K:

I agree that #14 at TOC is a really enjoyable par 3.
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Tim Weiman

Paul Richards

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Re:Ocean Course vs Whistling Straits
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2003, 10:05:19 PM »
TOC is an excellent course but just a few notches below WS, IMHO.

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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Jeff Goldman

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Re:Ocean Course vs Whistling Straits
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2003, 12:55:32 AM »
Paul,

why?  (and good to have you posting again)
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Paul Richards

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Re:Ocean Course vs Whistling Straits
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2003, 06:45:21 AM »
Jeff:

IMHO, Pacific Dunes, Bandon Dunes and Whistling Straights rise above all others in the world of Modern golf course architecture - at least in the ones that I have had the privilege of playing.

Don't get me wrong, the Ocean Course is a great course - and a very, very difficult as well.  It just doesn't rise up to the group above.
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Mike_Cirba

Re:Ocean Course vs Whistling Straits
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2003, 08:57:36 AM »
I much prefer the Ocean Course.  

WS, despite greater dramatics, has greater flaws and some flat out bad holes.  It also is overdone aesthetically in a way that sometimes hurts the eyes.  

Still, I'm looking forward to the PGA and hope that the wind blows hard.  It will likely be fun to watch.  
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A_Clay_Man

Re:Ocean Course vs Whistling Straits
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2003, 10:23:13 AM »
Since I've been to niether, I think I'm qualified ;D to say that the bifurcation in challenge was designed in. TOC seems like it had the pro in mind. Am I wrong?

A better comparison (though this is a good one) would be TOC against Fancourt. For two reasons, they came on back to back weekends, so both are fresh in mind and they both seemed rather penal.
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Paul Richards

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Re:Ocean Course vs Whistling Straits
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2003, 09:20:21 PM »
Mike:

The PGA at WS will be a wonderful event and, I hope, show that there are not nearly as many 'flaws' that you might have attributed to it.
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Jeff Goldman

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Re:Ocean Course vs Whistling Straits
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2003, 11:56:45 AM »
Am I the only one who prefers the River Course to WS?  Maybe it's because I've played it a lot more, but the individual holes seem more memorable and give me greater choices, althought the runup shots at WS are fun too.  Also, the less manufactured holes at the River Course are just stunning, whereas WS is entirely put together.  Also, while WS could be a great championship venue and the River Course is probably too short now, the River Course would be a great place for matchplay - seeing who goes for the green on 9, 14, 15, as well as in 2 on 8 and 16, would be awesome.

Jeff Goldman
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Tim_Weiman

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Re:Ocean Course vs Whistling Straits
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2003, 12:28:57 PM »
Jeff Goldman:

I really enjoyed the River course with the exception of #14. After 5-13 it comes across as a big disappointment, as if Dye temporarily ran out of ideas.

But, the River course and Whistling Straits strike me as so different I just can't compare the two.

P.S. Also, after Katie's Place in Carmel, the lodge there at the River course is my pick for an awesome breakfast - call that an a big Wisconson breakfast, the kind I usually avoid!
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Tim Weiman

A_Clay_Man

Re:Ocean Course vs Whistling Straits
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2003, 05:47:42 PM »
Tim- You must not be aware that 14 on the River course is the original 5th. 5-13 are the new holes. It followed the hole on the other side of the pond, the 4th, then and now. When it followed the par 3, the hole works quite well and the next "sand pit' also complimented the water holes elegantly.

So as you can see, Pete didn't run out of ideas, either he or Herb or both came up with too many ideas. Their justification was that they couldn't let that parcel go undeveloped and they certainly did create some great golf holes. But the cost was the original's soul.
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Tim_Weiman

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Re:Ocean Course vs Whistling Straits
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2003, 06:09:21 PM »
Adam,

Actually, I'm well aware of the history of changes at Blackwolf Run and like most people am quite happy the new holes were built. But, with the change, #14 just doesn't seem to fit, at least not for me.
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Tim Weiman

Jeff Goldman

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Re:Ocean Course vs Whistling Straits
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2003, 09:18:53 PM »
Tim,

Maybe 14 doesn't fit (the holes near the clubhouse are generally weaker and more manufactured), but it is a great matchplay hole.  In fact, 14-16 is a great matchplay sequence, as 14 and 15 are potentially drivable (with mucho trouble if you don't make it) and 16 is a risky shot to make it in 2 (although maybe it's too short now).

Jeff Goldman
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That was one hellacious beaver.

Paul Richards

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Re:Ocean Course vs Whistling Straits
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2003, 09:24:16 PM »
Jeff:

As I mentioned above, WS is at the very top of my Modern list.  BW-River is just a notch below and is fantastic in its own regard as well.   ;)
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Mike Vegis @ Kiawah

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Re:Ocean Course vs Whistling Straits
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2003, 10:19:27 AM »
Quote from: RJ_Daley on November 17, 2003, 07:49:22 PM
Also, I think that a bad maintence meld set-up can bring either course down a notch.  I didn't care for the soft approaches that I saw at TOC Sunday (I didn't see the other days)

I spoke to the superintendent the other day about this same subject (mostly due to the comments I read here on GCA).  He agreed and said that it was going to be addressed this year.  We plan to convert the fairways over to Paspalum which may help a bit but he said that the majority of the problem was going to be addressed by thinning up the collars (through verta cutting and aerification).  This will produce a harder surface allowing the ball to bounce on rather than stop short...
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