[Rob Marshall]

I realize it is heresy to say this on here, but I thought Harbour Town was very average.

I've thought that for years. Not even the best Pete Dye on the island.

yep.

I thought the par 3’s were pretty good. What’s the best Dye on the island?

[Phil Burr]

Unless I’m missing something I think Long Cove is the only other Dye on Hilton Head.  Colleton is nearby but still on a separate island.

[Edward Glidewell]

I've thought that for years. Not even the best Pete Dye on the island.

I haven't played that many courses in the Hilton Head area, but from what I have played, Old Tabby Links and Chechessee Creek are both better than Harbour Town and Callawassie Island was comparable.


As for Pinehurst -- I think Pinehurst #4 is quite good, but I think Dormie Club, Mid Pines, Pine Needles, and PH2 are all better. Southern Pines may be better too once the renovation is complete. That's not really a knock on PH4, though, since the latter three are among the best courses in the whole country.

[Anthony_Nysse]

I realize it is heresy to say this on here, but I thought Harbour Town was very average.

I've thought that for years. Not even the best Pete Dye on the island.

Long Cove. Such a better, day to day course with many more options, better green complexes & more variety. I know that Mr. Dye intended for it to be completely different than HT & it certainly is, especially on the heals of building Sawgrass.


Colleton River Dye may be even better, but there is also Hampton Hall and in some part, Secession off island.

yep.

I thought the par 3’s were pretty good. What’s the best Dye on the island?

[Joel Pear]

I'll probably get flamed for this, but the one time I played Ravisloe, I finished and thought, meh.

[Ken Fry]

I've brought this up before but for me it's Whistling Straits.

The strategic values are there on many holes but it's a bit overcooked for my tastes.  Yes the views are dramatic but quite frankly I prefer Arcadia Bluffs over the Straits course and I've been critical of Arcadia Bluffs in the past.

At Straits, holes 5 and 18 remain clunkers.

I prefer The River Course over Straits any time but put me in the camp that will drive by Kohler on my way to Lawsonia.  I can't  justify the expense of Kohler compared with the fun to be had at a place like Lawsonia.

Ken

[Jason Thurman]

I've brought this up before but for me it's Whistling Straits.

The strategic values are there on many holes but it's a bit overcooked for my tastes.  Yes the views are dramatic but quite frankly I prefer Arcadia Bluffs over the Straits course and I've been critical of Arcadia Bluffs in the past.

At Straits, holes 5 and 18 remain clunkers.

I totally get what you're saying. I probably like the Straits more than you do. But it's certainly overwrought. And while I think 5 is a fine hole, it's fair to point out that it doesn't really "fit." And 18 is a miserable slog full of features that don't work.


But Arcadia is forgettable as hell. I mean, scenic and a fun day on the course - I think it's probably underrated a little around here. But if Whistling Straits has two clunkers, Arcadia must have 6 or 7. Although for the price, Arcadia wins hands-down and it is probably the course I'd point a friend toward on that basis.

I prefer The River Course over Straits any time but put me in the camp that will drive by Kohler on my way to Lawsonia.  I can't  justify the expense of Kohler compared with the fun to be had at a place like Lawsonia.

Ken

One of the great lessons I learned in 2020: never play at Kohler unless you're getting a substantial discount. I love the courses, but it's hard to imagine playing any of them again anytime soon, especially considering how the golf market in Wisconsin has expanded in the last ten years.

[Richard Fisher]

With many apologies to 99% of the GCA confraternity, Dornoch. I know, I know.

[Ken Moum]

With many apologies to 99% of the GCA confraternity, Dornoch. I know, I know.

Don't feel bad, I have trouble warming up to it as well.  I've played it four or five times, and will likely play again if I return to the Highlands.  But not at full visitor rate.  Brora is half the price (or was), Tain and Golspie about a third.


It's just SO damned difficult for a short-hitter.


And really, what's so great about a course where a 6-handicap member lays up on a part three? Does that make it a risk-reward, driveable par four?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Quintero ( 2001, Rees Jones) in Peoria, AZ


Notwithstanding that my wife had a hole in one there in '03, I don't get this course located north of Phoenix in nowheres land. It's basically a Florida course bunkerwise and looks like it was dropped onto the land plus there are 3 drop shot par3s. I guess the raters liked it because it's difficult.


https://www.quinterogolf.com/championship-golf-course-phoenix/

[mike_malone]

With many apologies to 99% of the GCA confraternity, Dornoch. I know, I know.

I get Dornoch. I just think it’s a fine course and not great. I agree that 2 is goofy when you keep going back and forth. I did birdie once,btw.

[Ira Fishman]

With many apologies to 99% of the GCA confraternity, Dornoch. I know, I know.

RD is the course that conflicts me the most emotionally and intellectually. Way before I knew anything about architecture or this site, it sat at the top of my list of courses that I wanted to play. I am going back to when I first read Golf in the Kingdom decades ago. So clearly my expectations were unreasonable. And the fact that we played Golspie and Brora first compounded the conundrum because RD did not seem clearly superior.  In retrospect, based on my single play, I really have not changed my mind that much. The stretch from 2-8 is brilliant and 14 is everything it is cracked up to be. But 15 and 18 were only fine; 16 is a bad hole by any definition; and 17 would be very good if you had not already seen the same concept on 5 and 8.


I definitely would play RD again, but only if Golspie and Brora were also on the itinerary.


Ira

[John Foley]

Mid Pines.


I LOVE #2 & Dormie. Two of my all time great places I've experienced.


Very much enjoyed Tobacco Road, Southern Pines and Pine Needles.


Heck I like Longleaf!!


I expected a lot from Mid Pines and it just missed for me. Not sure I can articulate it as there were a lot of holes I liked, just some that were not there. Oh well!

[DFarron]

For me it’s …..


1. Medinah #3-Lots of really long dog legs, deep bunkers and nothing like four 225 yard par 3’s for variety.


2. Bethpage-see Medinah #3 with some occasional shorter par 3’s and 4’s


3. Olympia Fields North-Only remember one hole on the course, feel like there are 20 courses in the mid west you’ve never heard of that are better.


Have to disagree about Spy……played it a lot when I lived in California and really learned to love it.

[Sean_A]

Wow, people piling on Dornoch. It has some terrific land, one of the better sets of links greens in GB&I and Foxy.

For me it's Muirfield. I don't trust any design that needs 150 bunkers. The land nor the greens is in the class of Dornoch.

In the same vein, Lytham. Way too much sand. Its a shame because there is a fair amount of subtle movement in the land.

But I get Muirfield and Lytham. They are infected with Championshipitis.

Ciao

[Paul Carey]

Troon:  a few fun holes but the rest are a slog.
Spyglass:  hard and a typical boring parkland after the first few holes

[Jim Tang]

Erin Hills - I've played it twice several years apart.  The walk is brutally difficult and I found the round to be a complete slog.  The course looks great on TV but it's not much fun to play.

[Richard Fisher]

It's not that I didn't or wouldn't enjoy playing at Dornoch. It's a cracking course and an evocative place to play - but what I honestly don't get are the 'one of the very best courses in the world' rankings that RDGC perennially attracts. And to that extent I disagree (for once) with Sean, not least about the relative merits of Muirfield (and Lytham, for that matter). But cheerful disagreement is good and what makes this site fun!

[Sean_A]

I am giving Muirfield one last expensive go next March. If it fails to impress, Muirfield will be relegated to never will happen invite only status 😎. Lytham has long been relegated to this status.

Ciao

[Tim Gallant]

I must be an oblivious American because I didn't notice any attitude at Troon.  And I'm sure that I showed up in shorts. 

I agree that there is something missing with the course though.  I just chalked it up to only playing it once... but many of the other courses that I only played once were thrilling in comparison and much more memorable.  So I guess this would be the Scottish version of a course that I might not get.

Peter


I can understand where you and Gib are coming from as it's charms aren't hugely obvious on one go round. It's one of those courses I think where the more you play it the more you appreciate the run of the ball and the subtleties. In terms of the rep for being unfriendly, there was certainly some truth in that once upon a time but they have worked hard to address that.


Niall

Well said Niall,


I'd agree, and certainly count myself as someone who is appreciating the course more and more each time I get the opportunity to play it. I do think M&E have done some good things to the back-9 (if I'm remembering correctly), which has enhanced some holes that were already pretty cool!

[Brett Meyer]

Erin Hills - I've played it twice several years apart.  The walk is brutally difficult and I found the round to be a complete slog.  The course looks great on TV but it's not much fun to play.

The thing that I don't get about Erin Hills is who it's supposed to be designed for. Most of the greens have bunkers in front of them making it almost impossible for most of the people who play there to run the ball on the green---which they'll usually need to do. But it doesn't pose much of a challenge for the pros because the greens are big so they can just fly it over the bunkers and stop it on the greens. It seems like they were trying to design it for the pros, but designed something that the pros can still eat up. And don't give me that they were foiled by the rain--it's the midwest and it's late spring...it rains. So they've ended up with a course that suits no one. And on such a beautiful piece of land.


But designing for the US Open does mean that someone in either your group or one in front of you will try to play from 7,700 yards and it'll take 5 1/2 hours to play and/or you'll get lyme disease from hunting in the long grass for balls all day.

[Will Spivey]

Great thread - it's interesting to see courses both loved and loathed!


Add me to the chorus of those who think PH #4 is over rated. Like most of the courses we discuss on this forum, it is in the top 10% or so of all courses, but I don't see how any panelist could have it in their US Top 100 (that would be the top 0.7%).


Pinehurst and Kiawah are two of my very favorite places to visit. However, both "suffer" from the same situation - one all world course paired with numerous other so-so resort courses. All the others are OK courses, certainly better than your average public (or even average resort) course, but they are no where near worth the freight they charge. When in PH, I would much rather play Mid Pines, Pine Needles or Dormie than any other course on the PH resort. At Kiawah, the options are tougher due to the isolation of the island.

[Kyle Harris]

I'll take it to mean that "get" means understand moreso than "see the value of.."

In that vein I fully get places like Bethpage Black, etc. because I understand what that presentation or design is attempting to do even though I may have quibbles with the set up.

So, without further ado:

Camargo

The routing is superb but the templates achieve a 50% hit rate with me. The original holes are in the good-to-great category but so much there seems unfinished or untended in terms of design.

I don't understand how a course can hinge on two *great* par 3's, one good par 3 and a bland-to-me Biarritz. The punchbowl fails to inspire and then holes like 12 and 17 just feel incomplete. Mow/grass lines seem way off and do more to take you away from a great site than force you to integrate with it.

[MCirba]

Wannamoisett.


Humorless, unrelenting, penal, with a course that grows more contrived and oppressive as it progresses through the back nine.


Ducking for cover now.

[Phil Burr]

I have two others on my list.  The first I have played many times.  To be fair to the second, I saw it only on TV, over the course of many hours last summer.


The first is Forest Highlands (Canyon).  It’s a wonderful friendly club, but I can’t help but wonder if gets its lofty reputation in part because it offers a respite from the desert heat and an alternative to the repetitive, seen-one/seen-them-all litany of desert courses in Scottsdale.  Four of the six par 3s border on all-or-nothing shots; houses line every hole; the routing makes walking impossible; and the ninth green has one of the worst green complexes I’ve ever seen with seemingly every possible hazard - rock walls, sand, steep drop-offs; deep hollows, etc. - thrown into the mix (and on my worst days I think I’ve brought every one of those hazards into play in a single playing).


The second is Payne’s Valley.  The escarpment looming over the 18th green?  I guess one man’s beauty is another man’s eyesore.  Put me in the eyesore camp.  The holes as played by Tiger, Rory et. al. looked perfectly flattering to the pro game and utterly devoid of interest in terms of GCA.  Who thought #5 at Butler National is such a good par 3 that it need to be replicated, even with the same positioning on the scorecard?  Is the golf world so anxious for TW’s architectural career to overcome its shaky start that we give a pass to what appeared (on TV at least) to be a handsome yet bland layout build in the image of its creator’s game?

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