[Kalen Braley]

While I certainly understand what it means to be a guest, I think Kyle's nuanced comments are right on point.

Questioning the status quo is critical to both personal and societal growth, especially as it applies to stereotypes and its implications from something as trivial as a dress code.  In today's society, The 5 monkeys in a cage experiment is just as needed as ever...

[Kyle Harris]

While I certainly understand what it means to be a guest, I think Kyle's nuanced comments are right on point.

Questioning the status quo is critical to both personal and societal growth, especially as it applies to stereotypes and its implications from something as trivial as a dress code.  In today's society, The 5 monkeys in a cage experiment is just as needed as ever...

Wait. Was this the one where the middle rank monkey was given a shot of testosterone?! Someone showed me a book referencing that just last night!

[Kalen Braley]

While I certainly understand what it means to be a guest, I think Kyle's nuanced comments are right on point.

Questioning the status quo is critical to both personal and societal growth, especially as it applies to stereotypes and its implications from something as trivial as a dress code.  In today's society, The 5 monkeys in a cage experiment is just as needed as ever...

Wait. Was this the one where the middle rank monkey was given a shot of testosterone?! Someone showed me a book referencing that just last night!

 

[Will Spivey]

1st, this doesn’t apply to me. A friend that’s the 4th on an upcoming trip to a top 100 club. We’ve never met the member.
Is it appropriate to show up to the club in shorts and a t-shirt and then use the members locker room to change?

I really don't understand how this is even a question. Are the club rules anachronistic? Perhaps. Does that matter to a guest (who doesn't even know the member? Not in the least.


If you get invited to dinner to a friend of a friend's house, and the host is a recovering alcoholic, do you bring a bottle of wine ("It's ok, its just for me.") No, you don't. Maybe the host wouldn't mind, maybe they would, but you wouldn't put them in that position.


You get invited, again, by a friend, to a dinner with a prominent national political writer that doubtless will be a fascinating evening. If they are a known democratic operative do you wear a MAGA hat? If they're a noted republican operative do you wear a Biden/Harris sticker? Of course not.


This strikes me of the "it's all about me" attitude that is so pervasive today. If you don't like their rules, which is your prerogative, you are free to pass on the invitation. If you want to experience this opportunity, you show deference and respect to your host. If you're in doubt about anything, you always err on the side of caution, it's simple good manners.

[Jeff Schley]

Kyle,
 I appreciate your sensitivity toward growing the game.  I hope your efforts go beyond these posts.  But I have a simple question; are you advocating ignoring rules if you are an invited guest?  In the alternative, are you advocating changes in rules at clubs which you believe are overly restrictive?  Incidentally, if you are interested, my club has a relatively relaxed dress code.  Except for certain charity events and weddings I haven't seen a coat or tie in years so my views are little influenced by my personal preferences.

I rather clearly and concisely said in multiple posts that I am not advocating for ignoring the rules.

I'm generally okay with dress codes. I am not OKAY with holding this up as some modicum of respect for the traditions of the game. It isn't and that is utter bullshit. The game has a 500 year history that transcends multiple eras of decorum, dress, tradition, and courtesy. Furthermore, it is a WORLDWIDE game. Embrace the diversity.

That's why I post that photo of Linc Roden in the T-shirt. It was acceptable then. What is this "tradition" you speak of?

Or call it what it truly is: a form of pretense.

Kyle pretense according to who? Golf dress code is a standard which is commonly accepted at private clubs in the USA for my adult lifetime for the most part. Why they critical opprobrium of others who are attesting to such? The genesis of when and where it started isn't the issue, it has become a standard for the most part and I don't think breaks any laws. If a public muni isn't the same standard, great there are choices for us all.


You can disagree and asseverate your view to the contrary, but the standard exists. What harm does such a standard bring for the game of golf? You have trends in fashion which incrementally have gone from collared shirts to mock collars and yet the sun still comes up in the morning and shines down the first fairway.

If I wanted to complain about dress codes, I could bemoan the degradation of dress at church in my lifetime, which shows a lack of respect to something we are voluntarily choosing to attend and celebrate. You dress up for church, wakes, funerals etc. if you so choose to attend.  A parishioner would not be denied entry, but would ostracize themselves from the congregation if they wore a tank top and flip flops to church on Sunday morning. Or going to a funeral with the same, people are aware of where they go and how they should dress for occasions.


However, To adhere to a standard which is clear (and reasonable) at a private club, of which you are invited you couldn't be too bothered if you accept. To demur such policies is perfectly fine, one would just choose to not accept if invited.

[Kyle Harris]

The harm it brings to the game, in a forum where rote, conformist, architecture is utterly cryit down should be readily apparent.


It’s the people you are turning away with the… the word for it is PRETENSE.


I had one person say, aghast, “you have to wear slacks to play what you call a sport?! Outside?! That makes zero sense.”


And guess what. It doesn’t.


Dress codes are about the CLUB not about the SPORT.

[Kyle Harris]

Or, to put it far more succinctly:


You will be denied service for what you wear. Something that causes no harm to anybody.


You will not be denied service for not taking a bunker, not fixing a pitch mark, or not replacing divots… something that can and does cause harm to others enjoyment of the course.


To the outsider looking in, what does that say about priority?


Read that aloud to yourself. Does it make a lick of sense?!

[Jeff Schley]

The harm it brings to the game, in a forum where rote, conformist, architecture is utterly cryit down should be readily apparent.


It’s the people you are turning away with the… the word for it is PRETENSE.


I had one person say, aghast, “you have to wear slacks to play what you call a sport?! Outside?! That makes zero sense.”


And guess what. It doesn’t.


Dress codes are about the CLUB not about the SPORT.

So you have narrowed your complaints appropriately to a club's restrictions on dress when playing golf. I don't think all here are (I'm certainly not) opining to make golf dress the mandatory standard whenever and wherever it is played (private and muni). Just respect those private golf clubs who have mandated such. Private clubs choose to have a dress code (or privately owned public), it is their mandate for access. I don't think pretense is appropriate here really as it assumes all agree to having a dress code is injuring the game at private clubs. So if you think that is a pretense for golf fine there are courses you can access, just not those who require it, so there are many options for those that don't agree with it. Most municipals I have visited don't require collared shirts and you can wear denim if you choose.

[Jeff Schley]

Dress codes are about the CLUB not about the SPORT.

I agree with this certainly, but also respect clubs who have restrictions in place. Keeping in mind we are talking about a member inviting inviting a guest and what is appropriate, not growing the game which is a different topic. So on a larger scale is relaxing the dress code injurious to the game? No I don't personally believe so, however LACC won't let you on in shorts (for example). Is that a invite some would turn down?

[Kyle Harris]

Dress codes are about the CLUB not about the SPORT.

I agree with this certainly, but also respect clubs who have restrictions in place. Keeping in mind we are talking about a member inviting inviting a guest and what is appropriate, not growing the game which is a different topic. So on a larger scale is relaxing the dress code injurious to the game? No I don't personally believe so, however LACC won't let you on in shorts (for example). Is that a invite some would turn down?

Did you bother to read my other posts?


And yes, probably. Private clubs would like stop having such policies if/when people begin to stop patronizing them because of it. There are dozens of places I’ll not play because of their guest or membership policies… Garden City among them. It’s 2021. Grow up.

[Jeff Schley]

Dress codes are about the CLUB not about the SPORT.

I agree with this certainly, but also respect clubs who have restrictions in place. Keeping in mind we are talking about a member inviting inviting a guest and what is appropriate, not growing the game which is a different topic. So on a larger scale is relaxing the dress code injurious to the game? No I don't personally believe so, however LACC won't let you on in shorts (for example). Is that a invite some would turn down?

Did you bother to read my other posts?


And yes, probably. Private clubs would like stop having such policies if/when people begin to stop patronizing them because of it. There are dozens of places I’ll not play because of their guest or membership policies… Garden City among them. It’s 2021. Grow up.

Kyle equating a gender discriminatory policy (while not agreeable to some, is still legal for private clubs) to be on par with a simple dress code policy is a little extreme to be telling others to "grow up". If "growing up" just means agreeing with your view here, I may not, but I respect yours and others. Always agree no, I don't think it wishful thinking to always respect.

[Kyle Harris]

Dress codes are about the CLUB not about the SPORT.

I agree with this certainly, but also respect clubs who have restrictions in place. Keeping in mind we are talking about a member inviting inviting a guest and what is appropriate, not growing the game which is a different topic. So on a larger scale is relaxing the dress code injurious to the game? No I don't personally believe so, however LACC won't let you on in shorts (for example). Is that a invite some would turn down?

Did you bother to read my other posts?


And yes, probably. Private clubs would like stop having such policies if/when people begin to stop patronizing them because of it. There are dozens of places I’ll not play because of their guest or membership policies… Garden City among them. It’s 2021. Grow up.

Kyle equating a gender discriminatory policy (while not agreeable to some, is still legal for private clubs) to be on par with a simple dress code policy is a little extreme to be telling others to "grow up". If "growing up" just means agreeing with your view here, I may not, but I respect yours and others. Always agree no, I don't think it wishful thinking to always respect.

You asked if I would turn down an invite to a club based on a stringent dress code, which implied that the stature of the club could override opinion or principle.


I said sure and gave an example of another club I would turn down an invite due to a policy. You equated the two. Not me. As for that equation, it is far closer than the opposite, that’s for sure. Let’s not bring the double standard for women these days. You might look at what is happening with the German gymnastics team and the Norwegian (I think) women’s volleyball team to see why this actually is a “heart of the matter” issue for many.


For the record I’d probably turn down LACC on principle just for this thread, but then again, I’m not for access belt notching these days.

[Marty Bonnar]

While I certainly understand what it means to be a guest, I think Kyle's nuanced comments are right on point.

Questioning the status quo is critical to both personal and societal growth, especially as it applies to stereotypes and its implications from something as trivial as a dress code.  In today's society, The 5 monkeys in a cage experiment is just as needed as ever...

Wait. Was this the one where the middle rank monkey was given a shot of testosterone?! Someone showed me a book referencing that just last night!

 

Bruce Willis just called asking what you’ve done with the other seven monkeys. What the hell do I need to wear to get an invite to Kasumigaseki? I’ll do the kimono. I’ll do the sumo wrestler g-string. I’ll even do the full Anime cosplay. Just get me on there, Toranaga-sama, baby!
F.

[John Handley]

It's real simple.....if you accept the invite you accept the rules of the club.  It doesn't matter if you think they are stupid or not.  If it bothers you that much, then don't go.  I am 100% good with the dress codes enforced by clubs because after all, they are private clubs and they don't have to let you in.  I'm playing Muirfield in Sept. and I am excited to put a coat and tie on and go have lunch.  I haven't worn a sport coast in 2 years and probably haven't worn a tie in 10!  Does it seem a little much by our American standards?  Sure but who cares.  I want to play there and have lunch so I will gladly go along.


My club here in the states makes you wear pants, no shorts.  I used to kind of wonder about that but over the years I absolutely love it.  You want to play there, you wear pants.  You don't want to wear pants. you don't play there.   

[Stewart Abramson]

[/size]Here's a link to an article from today's Golf.com . I guess at least some of you will be turning down your hypothetical invitations [size=78%]


[/size]9 insanely strict dress code rules enforced at the Olympic golf venue[size=78%][/color]

https://golf.com/lifestyle/ridiculously-strict-dress-code-rules-olympic-golf/?utm_campaign=forecast&utm_source=golf.com&utm_medium=email&utm_content=%7Bdate%28&user_email=cc17f82e579c3655eccd61050e48d93a694f196efbcde09e81cb94979d51a629&utm_term=GOLFcom%20Top%20Stories%20Newsletter

[Ian Mackenzie]

Collared shirt, no jeans and your hat worn with the bill in front isn’t that hard. For those that want to die on the hill of cargo shorts have at it. Finally let me know when somebody says no to Garden City GC because they have to wear a blazer.

I say no to Garden City GC because it's a Men's Club. It's 2021. Grow up.

Maybe they will once the WAC (Chicago and NYC) - Women's Athletic Club - changes theirs...;-)

[Brad Lawrence]

Here's a link to an article from today's Golf.com . I guess at least some of you will be turning down your hypothetical invitations [size=78%]


[/size]9 insanely strict dress code rules enforced at the Olympic golf venue[size=78%]

https://golf.com/lifestyle/ridiculously-strict-dress-code-rules-olympic-golf/?utm_campaign=forecast&utm_source=golf.com&utm_medium=email&utm_content=%7Bdate%28&user_email=cc17f82e579c3655eccd61050e48d93a694f196efbcde09e81cb94979d51a629&utm_term=GOLFcom%20Top%20Stories%20Newsletter
[/size]

[size=78%]


That golf course doesn’t appear to be worthy of that kind of hassle. But there are plenty of great, old golf courses that I will happily do an internal eye roll and engage in archaic rituals for the opportunity to play.  I would never join a stuffy snobitorium, but it’s a small price to pay to play a great course for the first time. [/size]

[Ryan Van Culin]

As someone who took up golf as an adult, and has introduced other adults to golf, I think the "stuffy for stuffiness sake" is a bit much. It's odd having to explain to people why they have to buy a specific wardrobe for a game they are trying for the first time. And before I get called down by those who don't own work clothes, most folks in my demographic don't wear a collar for anything short of church or a funeral. Some not even then. It just isn't baked into the culture.


The worst part of it all is when people don't have the patience to explain to someone why there is a reason certain etiquette norms exist. I once took 2 adult friends to my private club to try golf for the first time. I saw them about to do something they saw as normal, and I ran to stop them. Before I could get to them, they were literally shouted down by an older member. My friend said he didn't know it wasn't allowed, and was told "if you don't know that, then you don't belong here!"


I apologized for the mistake, but they both told me they would never try golf again. I don't blame them.

[Ian Mackenzie]

As someone who took up golf as an adult, and has introduced other adults to golf, I think the "stuffy for stuffiness sake" is a bit much. It's odd having to explain to people why they have to buy a specific wardrobe for a game they are trying for the first time. And before I get called down by those who don't own work clothes, most folks in my demographic don't wear a collar for anything short of church or a funeral. Some not even then. It just isn't baked into the culture.


The worst part of it all is when people don't have the patience to explain to someone why there is a reason certain etiquette norms exist. I once took 2 adult friends to my private club to try golf for the first time. I saw them about to do something they saw as normal, and I ran to stop them. Before I could get to them, they were literally shouted down by an older member. My friend said he didn't know it wasn't allowed, and was told "if you don't know that, then you don't belong here!"


I apologized for the mistake, but they both told me they would never try golf again. I don't blame them.

First off, the member who barked at your guests is WAY out of line and he should be the one to get a letter from the board. If club staff is trained by decent management, then they should say something or the dick-head member should say something to the staff. It's not a member's role to be the rules police.


But....Please dont confuse basic golf game culture with private country club "rules" and decorum.


For every one "stuffy" private club, there are 6-8 public venues. Golfers have choices, just as workers have choices.


If you really seek to be so egalitarian, why dont you crusade against a dress code in the office?
Some questions:


1. Why shouldnt it be normal to wear a hoodie and gym shorts to your job as an admin, clerk or lawyer at a law firm? You CAN wear that if you work at a tech firm afterall...;-)...jeez, I mean...how ridiculous....law firms should be castigated...;-) Dress codes arent about "office attire" per se, they are profession-specific.


2. Why shouldnt you wear a tee shirt and skinny jeans to your aunt's wedding? I mean, come on, how stuffy can a wedding really be?
Dress codes arent about parties per se, they are about being occasion-specific.


Dress codes are not about the game of golf, per se, they are club-specific.


Private clubs are not there to accomadate the whims and trends of their "Gen Pop" guests...;-) You want a lax dress code, then find a club that has one.


You want to talk on your cell phone at dinner, then find a club, venue or restaurant that facillitates that. This is a great country that offers a variety of options.


Many, not all, Private clubs are an escape for the fortunate and members pay for that privelege. No cell phones, reasoanble dress codes, civil discourse...who are "you" to tell "them" that you disagree...? Dont like it, leave. Just like the private club member aint gonna go to the corner gin mill and get all uppity with the locals about their customs...;-)..cuz he doesnt belong...


And I believe the OP described a "top 100" course/club placing it firmly in the top 1% of this category. So, 99% of the world's courses may have more relaxed policies and the OP's choice was to NOT go there but to the epicenter of eliticism then cops an attitude about it....?


Shit, this post should be about chips on shoulders, not dress codes....




So, you take your significant other out to dinner at a nice (not snobby) restaurant to celebrate a special occasion in your medium to small town. In walks some jack-wagon barking on his cell phone wearing a tank-top and jorts and sits down next to you and he stays on his phone while scartching his nuts and gets plowed.


He's totally allowed to do that...right...?


Question: Will you return to that restaurant again?


The restaurant wants YOU as the patron, not the jack-wagon.


Finish the analogy on your own....

[Gib_Papazian]

Ian,

"Jack-wagon." That retires the trophy for fabulous use of arcane cultural reference. I plan to ruthlessly steal it . . . . .


As for the rest of you, private clubs are not meant to be a public accommodation - and therefore can make up their own rules. I have never heard of a club enforcing a specific dress code for guests that do not apply to the rank & file members, so if you want a fancy scotch lunch - with freshly caught East Lothian game and tureens of soup - then put on a fucking tie like Lord Hetherington or order a sandwich to-go at Mallards around the corner.


Incidentally, I am still in debt to Mrs. Mustard (yes, her real name), who was kind enough to green light two walk-in American lads when the impossibly dour Captain Prideaux was on holiday up in Dornoch. We had previously been given a rather firm “no” - calling him well in advance from America.


My father, who just dripped in class I will never have, had struck up a friendship with the notorious Paddy Hanmer. With my usual impeccable timing, I somehow managed to call Captain Prideaux (Hamner had retired as Club Sec.) and try some gentle name dropping the very day Captain Hanmer passed away . . . .


Undaunted, Dear Old Dad suggested the two of us show up in jacket and tie (no clubs) and respectfully plead our case - which we did, with extreme deference and unctuous groveling. Mrs. Mustard assured us we were the first Americans ever to show up unannounced and be given access to play Muirfield - giving us 15 minutes to return to the hotel, change out of our suits and tee off - since a foursome of rather severe members was just finishing their pre-round lunch.


Apparently, Mrs. Mustard had "a nephew from your Olympic Club I am rather fond of. Please pass on a hello for me when you return home."

Phew . . . .


Here is the thing, David (I’ll call him David, because that is still his name) and we would have played in jacket and tie - or a clown suit if that was the requirement - to experience that masterpiece . . . . . and the idea of some dogmatic, entitled millennial squawking about something as trivial as a dress code to play the Shinnecock of Scotland would have been absolutely preposterous.     


As for dress codes purportedly discriminatory to women, the cheeky bastard in me - who absolutely loathes this gender-bending horseshit being foisted upon us by this generation of lockstep imbeciles - is waiting for some broad (who “self-identifies” as man) to march onto the first tee at Garden City on Men’s Guest Day. I pray Pat Mucci will be in attendance . . . . just for entertainment value.


And then - just to test limits in the other direction - we need an obese tranny ringer, prancing into the Women’s Invitational at SFGC, wearing a Loweezy Smith country getup and flowered hat. I’m picking on the club across Lake Merced because they exempted themselves from all the attacks on their private status by hiding behind the statute providing a carve-out for clubs with less than 400 members . . . . . . love to see how how all the rich Marin County liberals like a little taste of their own rat poison.     


 

[Ryan Van Culin]

Ian,


I 100% agree with everything you said.


I was blowing off a little steam, mainly because that's the way I felt when I got into the game. It was several years before I played any private course, and I still got several very cold greetings at supposed inclusive public or muni courses. In hindsight, the worst part of it is that I played the same ragged goat-track for my first 2 years just because the people were the nicest. I could have played nicer and more interesting courses for the same money.

[Bruce Katona]

From FBD:

"Bruce Willis just called asking what you’ve done with the other seven monkeys. What the hell do I need to wear to get an invite to Kasumigaseki? I’ll do the kimono. I’ll do the sumo wrestler g-string. I’ll even do the full Anime cosplay. Just get me on there, Toranaga-sama, baby![/size]F."




I will pay good money for the digital pix of FBD in a sumo g-string on the 1st tee @ Kasumigaseki or any other place though I may double my contribution for a sumo g-string shot out on the 1st tee @ TOC - that'll shake up the lads having lunch in the R&A Clubhouse ......who else is joining me?[/color]

[Jon Sweet]

From FBD:

"Bruce Willis just called asking what you’ve done with the other seven monkeys. What the hell do I need to wear to get an invite to Kasumigaseki? I’ll do the kimono. I’ll do the sumo wrestler g-string. I’ll even do the full Anime cosplay. Just get me on there, Toranaga-sama, baby!F."




I will pay good money for the digital pix of FBD in a sumo g-string on the 1st tee @ Kasumigaseki or any other place though I may double my contribution for a sumo g-string shot out on the 1st tee @ TOC - that'll shake up the lads having lunch in the R&A Clubhouse ......who else is joining me?

Bruce,
I don’t know what you’re “packing” for the trip but it would be worth the plane ticket to see the show.

[Brad Lawrence]

As someone who took up golf as an adult, and has introduced other adults to golf, I think the "stuffy for stuffiness sake" is a bit much. It's odd having to explain to people why they have to buy a specific wardrobe for a game they are trying for the first time. And before I get called down by those who don't own work clothes, most folks in my demographic don't wear a collar for anything short of church or a funeral. Some not even then. It just isn't baked into the culture.


The worst part of it all is when people don't have the patience to explain to someone why there is a reason certain etiquette norms exist. I once took 2 adult friends to my private club to try golf for the first time. I saw them about to do something they saw as normal, and I ran to stop them. Before I could get to them, they were literally shouted down by an older member. My friend said he didn't know it wasn't allowed, and was told "if you don't know that, then you don't belong here!"


I apologized for the mistake, but they both told me they would never try golf again. I don't blame them.

I’m guessing that his behavior was more inappropriate than the behavior he was calling out. Let’s make sure everybody’s shorts are the correct length but shouting at guests is just fine.


That’s not the kind of facility I would take someone to if I wanted them to fall in love with the game. In my 35 years of playing, I have never had more fun than I did in my youth on a goat track of a course filled with blue collar types. I’d rather spend what is left of my days playing there than on the very nicest country club I’ve ever had the privilege of playing. I think golf should be fun and a place to escape. I’m also the weirdo that would rather have a pizza at home watching the ball game than put on a suit to have the most expensive steak in town.  I would fight for any business’ right to demand I put on a rainbow wig as a condition of service, but that doesn’t mean I can’t find it ridiculous. 

[Mark Mammel]

'You asked if I would turn down an invite to a club based on a stringent dress code, which implied that the stature of the club could override opinion or principle.

I said sure and gave an example of another club I would turn down an invite due to a policy. You equated the two. Not me. As for that equation, it is far closer than the opposite, that’s for sure. Let’s not bring the double standard for women these days. You might look at what is happening with the German gymnastics team and the Norwegian (I think) women’s volleyball team to see why this actually is a “heart of the matter” issue for many.


For the record I’d probably turn down LACC on principle just for this thread, but then again, I’m not for access belt notching these days.

I understand your point(s) here but I have to say that this seems a case of "pick your battles." Every point of principle does not require one to go to the mattresses. In the meantime, I will cheerfully play in long pants should I be invited to CPCC, MPCC, SFGC, Cal Club...
and many others not in California! On the other hand, I would turn down offers at "men only" clubs as I find this exclusionary behavior not comfortable to me. Legal, and those that belong to such clubs, have at it. But I'll take a pass.

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