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Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT straw poll appropriate guest behavior
« Reply #150 on: August 06, 2021, 07:44:00 PM »
Let Mr. Huntley, and many of his anachronistic ideals, Rest In Peace.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

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Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT straw poll appropriate guest behavior
« Reply #151 on: August 06, 2021, 08:30:40 PM »
I've been taking my cousin to quite a few private clubs and I'm on pins and needles with him.


I've found you really have to inform him way before on behavior and apparel. Most of the time I drive so I can check him out before.




Gib_Papazian

Re: OT straw poll appropriate guest behavior
« Reply #152 on: August 07, 2021, 01:03:39 PM »
Joel,


Just send him to Kyle's club in a speedo, flip flops and a wife beater . . . . . . nobody will notice, since they apparently don't bother with "anachronistic ideals."


BTW, for you Brits, a "wife beater" is a pejorative term - referring to a sleeveless tee shirt (kind of an East Coast thing) often worn by cement heads in rough, working class neighborhoods. Kind of like what you find walking into the wrong pub in Possilpark.




   




Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT straw poll appropriate guest behavior
« Reply #153 on: August 07, 2021, 03:40:37 PM »
Gib


I live less than 2 miles from Possilpark and let me assure every pub is the wrong pub in Possilpark !


Niall

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT straw poll appropriate guest behavior
« Reply #154 on: August 07, 2021, 04:00:06 PM »
Let Mr. Huntley, and many of his anachronistic ideals, Rest In Peace.


No, I think some of us are quite happy to preserve and continue those ideals. Equally a lot of us are happy to leave each to their own and if some clubs are happy with jeans and tee-shirts then fine. That I think is the answer to the question, respect the clubs rules, whatever they may be. It's not really difficult is it ?


Niall

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT straw poll appropriate guest behavior
« Reply #155 on: August 07, 2021, 05:35:19 PM »
Let Mr. Huntley, and many of his anachronistic ideals, Rest In Peace.


No, I think some of us are quite happy to preserve and continue those ideals. Equally a lot of us are happy to leave each to their own and if some clubs are happy with jeans and tee-shirts then fine. That I think is the answer to the question, respect the clubs rules, whatever they may be. It's not really difficult is it ?


Niall


You are welcome to find a post where I have said otherwise.


Questioning the efficacy of a rule is not, in anyway, disrespecting it.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT straw poll appropriate guest behavior
« Reply #156 on: August 07, 2021, 05:37:21 PM »
Let Mr. Huntley, and many of his anachronistic ideals, Rest In Peace.


No, I think some of us are quite happy to preserve and continue those ideals. Equally a lot of us are happy to leave each to their own and if some clubs are happy with jeans and tee-shirts then fine. That I think is the answer to the question, respect the clubs rules, whatever they may be. It's not really difficult is it ?


Niall


And that, of course, is why every post saying something like this is myopic.


You absolutely cannot lump “this rule sucks and is pushing otherwise meaningful contributions to the sport away” with “don’t follow the rules.”


They are two different things.


And trying to lump the former with the latter is a rather distasteful form of censorship. “You question the rule?!? How dare you!”


Come on. Do better.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

AChao

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT straw poll appropriate guest behavior
« Reply #157 on: August 07, 2021, 08:00:24 PM »
I do have to say that sometimes the clubhouse architect is pretty thoughtful.  I was going to say something, but realized that at both my current club as well as my previous club, there is a side entrance to go straight into the locker rooms so guests that show-up in the right attire won't violate dress code while getting to the locker room.  At my current club, there literally is a non-descript door by valet where guests that aren't dressed right can sneak into the locker room directly. 

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT straw poll appropriate guest behavior
« Reply #158 on: August 07, 2021, 08:19:33 PM »
I do have to say that sometimes the clubhouse architect is pretty thoughtful.  I was going to say something, but realized that at both my current club as well as my previous club, there is a side entrance to go straight into the locker rooms so guests that show-up in the right attire won't violate dress code while getting to the locker room.  At my current club, there literally is a non-descript door by valet where guests that aren't dressed right can sneak into the locker room directly.


The locker room side door is a nice down card if you or your guest happen to be riding around in your bathing suit and a cape. Think about how often you go to a masquerade themed pool party. It’s more than you thought right?

Gib_Papazian

Re: OT straw poll appropriate guest behavior
« Reply #159 on: August 08, 2021, 02:22:13 PM »
Niall,

My homey David Lee and I were hopelessly lost, coming back from Prestwick - trying to find our B&B - when we finally gave up and stopped for directions at a pub in Possilpark. We're both experienced travelers and can read a room pretty well, but the joint instantly fell silent the minute we tottered in with our crumpled map.

Apparently, there are no dentists in north Glasgow - and even the barmaid was obviously a soccer hooligan. Not wanting to look too obvious - and feeling a bit parched after a knock-down, drag out fight with Willie Campbell's bunker (on both 13 and 16, because I'm clearly a slow fucking learner) - we carefully ordered a couple pints of bitter, hoping to figure out where we were.

Up wanders what appeared to be Phil Collin's tatted-up cousin the family don't discuss, who pointed to my saddle shoes and announced in the thickest Scottish street brogue I had ever heard, "Aye, Mr. Two Tone, you lads lost? Ye *must* be lost, coming in here looking like that you know."

David - the navigator, since I knew how to drive a manual tranny left-handed - scowled at me out of the corner of his eye, noticing the smallest girl in the pub (arms like a steel worker, swastika tat on her low-cut boobs) could probably kick both of our asses by herself, muttered "So, you just had to have a beer you idiot. Great job, now what?"

Sensing we were both about to be eaten by the natives - OMG is Glasgow different than effete Edinborough - I reached into my pocket and emptied a handful of quid and some odd pence on the bar and said "As you can see, we're are a pair of lost Americans, but I'll make you a deal. If you give us directions back to the M8 and across the river, next round is on me."

In the blink of an eye, everybody including the barmaid (looking for a tip I suppose) surrounded us, squabbling with each other the fastest way across the River Clyde. One of them (who could have been one of Alex's Droogies) fished a pencil from his shirt and marked up our map how to get back to safety.

To his credit, as we emptied our pints and backed out the door, the head Droogie whispered, "Don'tcha be stopping again until ya cross the river, this is no place for a couple of Americans, especially lookin' like that."





























 


     
« Last Edit: August 08, 2021, 08:11:44 PM by Gib Papazian »

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT straw poll appropriate guest behavior
« Reply #160 on: August 08, 2021, 07:44:32 PM »
Marvellous, pure Trainspotting.


Niall


Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT straw poll appropriate guest behavior
« Reply #161 on: August 08, 2021, 07:59:11 PM »
Let Mr. Huntley, and many of his anachronistic ideals, Rest In Peace.


No, I think some of us are quite happy to preserve and continue those ideals. Equally a lot of us are happy to leave each to their own and if some clubs are happy with jeans and tee-shirts then fine. That I think is the answer to the question, respect the clubs rules, whatever they may be. It's not really difficult is it ?


Niall


And that, of course, is why every post saying something like this is myopic.


You absolutely cannot lump “this rule sucks and is pushing otherwise meaningful contributions to the sport away” with “don’t follow the rules.”


They are two different things.


And trying to lump the former with the latter is a rather distasteful form of censorship. “You question the rule?!? How dare you!”


Come on. Do better.


Reading comprehension is clearly not one of your strong suites. I suggest you have another read, think about it and then maybe consult with a grown up if it is too difficult to grasp the idea that different clubs can have different rules and that's fine. And that if invited as a guest you simply comply with the rules of the club you have been invited to, whatever they may be, or politely decline the invitation. No censorship there, distasteful or otherwise.


Niall

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT straw poll appropriate guest behavior
« Reply #162 on: August 08, 2021, 08:20:04 PM »
Niall,

My homey David Lee and I were hopelessly lost, coming back from Prestwick - trying to find our B&B - when we finally gave up and stopped for directions at a pub in Possilpark. We're both experienced travelers and can read a room pretty well, but the joint instantly fell silent the minute we tottered in with our crumpled map.

Apparently, there are no dentists in north Glasgow - and even the barmaid was obviously a soccer hooligan. Not wanting to look too obvious - and feeling a bit parched after a knock-down, drag out fight with Willie Campbell's bunker (on both 13 and 16, because I'm clearly a slow fucking learner) - we carefully ordered a couple pints of bitter, hoping to figure out where we were.

Up wanders what appeared to be Phil Collin's tatted-up cousin the family don't discuss, who pointed to my saddle shoes and announced in the thickest Scottish street brogue I had ever heard, "Aye, Mr. Two Tone, you lads lost? Ye *must* be lost, coming in here looking like that you know."

David - the navigator, since I knew how to drive a manual tranny left-handed - scowled at me out of the corner of his eye, noticing the smallest girl in the pub (arms like a steel worker, swastika tat on her low-cut boobs) could probably kick both of our asses by herself, muttered "So, you just had to have a beer you idiot. Great job, now what?"

Sensing we were both about to be eaten by the natives - OMG is Glasgow different than effete Edinborough - I reached into my pocket and emptied a handful of quid and some odd pence on the bar and said "As you can see, we're are a pair of lost Americans, but I'll make you a deal. If you give us directions back to the M8 and across the river, next round is on me."

In the blink of an eye, everybody including the barmaid (looking for a tip I suppose) surrounded us, squabbling with each other the fastest way across the River Clyde. One of them (who could have been one of Alex's Droogies) fished a pencil from his shirt and marked up our map how to get back to safety.

To his credit, as we were emptied our pints and backed out the door, the head Droogie whispered, "Don'tcha be stopping again until ya cross the river, this is no place for a couple of Americans, especially lookin' like that."

Had a similar experience in Ballyliffen. Went into a local pub with a couple of guys from a golf trip. The other 5 were tired after playing 36. Settled in to a nice table in back still in full golf attire. Owner was very nice and chatted with us a bit. As we walked out one of the young bucks at the bar says “the boys are leaving”.


 I go to open the door and it’s locked. I didn’t know that each bar has a license to stay open to a different hour. You can stay and drink as long as the bartender wants to hang around but they can’t let new patrons in.

My buddy was a reformed likes to fight guy from his younger days, walks back to the bar and says something to the effect of “excuse me?”. I look at the other guy and give him a look that says “ I wonder how much our bail is going to be and will we make our tee time in the morning”


Owner stepped in, thanked us for stopping in and opened the door for us.


Other than that I have to say without a doubt some of the friendliest people I have ever met….smooth sailing until we got to Portrush and the only rooms were at the Eglington hotel. If you’ve stayed there you know what I’m taking about.






























 


     
« Last Edit: August 08, 2021, 08:22:12 PM by Rob Marshall »
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT straw poll appropriate guest behavior
« Reply #163 on: August 08, 2021, 09:07:58 PM »
Well you don't have to go overseas to find that kind of gig.


Years ago, my best buddy and I were on the other side of town in Spokane and looking to try a new spot for a drink.  So we find a place that didn't look too bad....from the outside... but as we walked in, it was similar to what Gil described where the music stopped and all eyes were burning a hole in our back.


So we order a couple of tequila shots, shoot em down, slap a $20 on the bar and said keep the change.  All in, we were in and out in less than two minutes.  ;)

Peter Pallotta

Re: OT straw poll appropriate guest behavior
« Reply #164 on: August 08, 2021, 09:31:00 PM »
In my case, it was a bar in Amarillo, Texas, late at night and the only bar open near my hotel. They kept me standing at the door while letting in several others. I asked why and the doorman said 'You need to be 21.' [I was 35 at the time, and unshaven, and had just driven in from Little Rock Arkansas, so looked even older.] I said 'I don't look 21 to you?' and he said 'No sir, you do not'. I realized I was not wanted there. Might have been the sports jacket I was wearing, a nice vintage herringbone.


Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT straw poll appropriate guest behavior
« Reply #165 on: August 09, 2021, 05:30:13 AM »
Let Mr. Huntley, and many of his anachronistic ideals, Rest In Peace.


No, I think some of us are quite happy to preserve and continue those ideals. Equally a lot of us are happy to leave each to their own and if some clubs are happy with jeans and tee-shirts then fine. That I think is the answer to the question, respect the clubs rules, whatever they may be. It's not really difficult is it ?


Niall


And that, of course, is why every post saying something like this is myopic.


You absolutely cannot lump “this rule sucks and is pushing otherwise meaningful contributions to the sport away” with “don’t follow the rules.”


They are two different things.


And trying to lump the former with the latter is a rather distasteful form of censorship. “You question the rule?!? How dare you!”


Come on. Do better.


Reading comprehension is clearly not one of your strong suites. I suggest you have another read, think about it and then maybe consult with a grown up if it is too difficult to grasp the idea that different clubs can have different rules and that's fine. And that if invited as a guest you simply comply with the rules of the club you have been invited to, whatever they may be, or politely decline the invitation. No censorship there, distasteful or otherwise.


Niall


Nor is it yours, clearly. But don't worry, you're still on the list of people who won't ask uncomfortable questions of clubs so your invites are secure. Perhaps you'll stay in one of their "suites" while wearing your "suit." Maybe you can consult a fellow grown up on your spelling or word usage, too.

It is the lumping the scrutiny of the rule and asking what it does for the overall culture of the sport with the we should be able to break the rules that is myopic. I never said to break the rule or do anything other than respect the club's ability to make/enforce the rule. That doesn't mean I won't openly criticize the rule. How else can change be affected? How else will others who may silently agree (and they exist) not feel supported?


You clearly just got triggered by the whole "DRESS CODES SUCK" thing that you glossed over my repeated posts saying "Yeah, country clubs can make whatever rules they want. I can follow those but still call them pretentious" too.

So, all you're really contributing is your voice to the chorus of people who are "safe." Good for you.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT straw poll appropriate guest behavior
« Reply #166 on: August 09, 2021, 08:41:57 AM »
Kyle,

I do kind of regret posting that as I was just returned home after a long drive and it was 1am in the morning so I probably wasn't at my most lucid. I think I just reacted to the completely baffling "distasteful censorship" and "do better" jibes. When and where I've tried to censor you is a mystery but no doubt you'll explain.

For the record I've been a member at clubs where jeans and tee shirts are perfectly acceptable both on the course and in the clubhouse and also clubs where you need to be wearing a jacket and tie for certain parts of the clubhouse. I've been very happy at both. Those were the rules when I joined and I saw no reason to complain when I was a member. To be frank, the dress code comes down the list of criteria when I look to join a club. I do however look for members and guests to respect each other, and that involves following the rules, whatever they may be. To my mind, it is just an extension to the etiquette you follow when on the course.

As an aside, the club's with the stricter dress codes had a waiting list to join whereas the others didn't so I'm not sure the argument that it puts people off holds up. As a former poster said, it's a big world out there and room for all sorts. If you just accept that then maybe you wouldn't feel the need to try and cancel the attitudes and mores of the late Mr Huntley. Just a thought.

Niall 

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT straw poll appropriate guest behavior
« Reply #167 on: August 09, 2021, 11:34:15 AM »
Kyle, I wanted to weigh in on the side of the gentlemen because I'm feeling left out and regardless, there are worse things than being in the camp with the dearly departed  Bob Huntley.


I suggest you relax, stock your Yeti cooler and head down to Sweeten's Cove where you can enjoy home-field advantage.


Kinder regards,


Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT straw poll appropriate guest behavior
« Reply #168 on: August 10, 2021, 08:41:12 AM »
Niall, Bogey, et. al.,

Because the question is not whether or not private clubs/entities/individuals HAVE the right to enforce a dress code on their private property. It never has been. Yet the only response is "well, they have the right to do that."

Great.

The question is actually "What does the manner in which, and which specific, rights they exercise say about the private club/entity/individual and how does that affect the overall health and future of golf as a whole?"

And nobody seems to want to glance in the mirror and see what is lurking behind them to actually answer the question.

A few years back I took a curious friend of mine from the range to the course for the first time. They, quite reasonably might I add, showed up to play in what any person would choose for spending a few hours out-of-doors walking and occasionally performing a quick, precise, athletic movement. I took care to warn them that they may be required to change into attire more akin to what I was wearing but I also was NOT going to be the guy to force them. That's on the club.

Sure enough they ended up purchasing a nice logo shirt in the shop. Ironically, the gym shorts passed muster here.

45 minutes later on the third green as I am repairing ball marks and informing my friend the courtesy is to fix any damage you create and any other damage you see. This was met with a rather perplexed look...

"So, I'm expected to dress a certain way before even participating, and while participating I'm expected to clean up after the neglect of others, why aren't they denied service?" I returned their gaze with the dumbstruck look of someone that had been missing the obvious for so long. Any rational human being would question this.


Look at how quickly pretty much every participant on this thread has jumped in line to defend a private entity's RIGHT (which has never been in question) to enforce a dress code and here I am one of the only/few that question the exigency of their implementation of that right.

And for every "Yes, but have you thought about..." I get a "the clubs reserve the right" or a "find a place that doesn't have a dress code..." That's really what censorship is... conflating the existence of the right with the question about how it's perceived and implemented, and what that says about golf in general.

How many of those places exist? How many are held as the beacons of all that is great in golf? Every municipal golf course between me and Winter Park has "Proper Golf Attire Required" on their scorecard.

And the great irony of the whole thing is that golf, with it's world-wide reach and 500 year history is being held hostage to a standard which has really only existed for perhaps the last century. The Bausch Archives are littered with dozens of photos from the early 20th century of golfers in all manner of dress. Question the sample size? Just how much on-course golf photography was happening in 1918? If it weren't so widespread that is surely a great coincidence. The other great irony is that up until the past 50 years golf has been at the forefront of the sporting class fashion sense and now it lags.

So, you're an active, athletic, intelligent, personable, and kind human being and your interest is piqued in the great game of golf. You find a place that borderline deifies this look:



And readily accepts behavior that leaves courses looking like this:



Yet, refuses service to someone that might dress like this:



And is more than happy to do this (likely because they can actually bend over):



Very telling, I say.

Who is being pushed away by this? And perhaps more importantly, WHAT CONTRIBUTIONS TO THE FUTURE OF GOLF are being pushed away by...

A F&$*(#@ Dress Code.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT straw poll appropriate guest behavior
« Reply #169 on: August 10, 2021, 09:11:41 AM »
For anybody that’s hedging on an invite to Garden City GC because of the blazer requirement and all male status I’m happy to fill in if it helps. I think I’ll be able to handle any judgement that comes my way as a result. ;)

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT straw poll appropriate guest behavior
« Reply #170 on: August 10, 2021, 09:14:42 AM »
For anybody that’s hedging on an invite to Garden City GC because of the blazer requirement and all male status I’m happy to fill in if it helps. I think I’ll be able to handle any judgement that comes my way as a result. ;)


You can bribe me with Wawa Iced Tea, as you well know ;)
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT straw poll appropriate guest behavior
« Reply #171 on: August 10, 2021, 09:17:18 AM »
For anybody that’s hedging on an invite to Garden City GC because of the blazer requirement and all male status I’m happy to fill in if it helps. I think I’ll be able to handle any judgement that comes my way as a result. ;)


You can bribe me with Wawa Iced Tea, as you well know ;)


 ;D -I’m happy to provide an assortment of Tastykakes too!!!

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT straw poll appropriate guest behavior
« Reply #172 on: August 10, 2021, 11:06:44 AM »
Let's face it. There are many rules that clubs have that amaze nongolfers. I brought my sister for dinner at my DC club. I told her to order as much as she wanted because my minimum was due that day. "You mean, if you don't spend X$ you get charged it even if you don't spend it?" was her reply.


Many rules differ between clubs, especially country clubs and golf clubs.
I brought a friend, who was a member at a country club, to Four Streams once. There were two foursomes on the first tee so I had the caddie master drive us out to the third hole which had clear sailing. He was astonished. At his club players are not allowed to tee off on ten without special permission. [size=78%]We didn't see anyone the rest of the day. We took at cart to play one and two and drove in. When we got back to the clubhouse he asked about cell phone rules and whether or not he could wear a hat inside. We sat down to eat lunch, saw the menu that didn't have prices listed and wondered if it were free. "Nope, but I find out the price on my statement." We left our shoes with the locker room attendant, "Do we tip him?" he wondered. [/size]
« Last Edit: August 10, 2021, 02:15:21 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT straw poll appropriate guest behavior
« Reply #173 on: August 10, 2021, 01:26:21 PM »
Let's face it. There are many rules that clubs have that amaze nongolfers. I brought my sister for dinner at my DC club. I told her to order as much as she wanted because my minimum was do that day. "You mean, if you don't spend X$ you get charged it even if you don't spend it?" was her reply.


Many rules differ between clubs, especially country clubs and golf clubs.
I brought a friend, who was a member at a country club, to Four Streams once. There were two foursomes on the first tee so I had the caddie master drive us out to the third hole which had clear sailing. He was astonished. At his club players are not allowed to tee off on ten without special permission. [size=78%]We didn't see anyone the rest of the day. We took at cart to play one and two and drove in. When we got back to the clubhouse he asked about cell phone rules and whether or not he could wear a hat inside. We sat down to eat lunch, saw the menu that didn't have prices listed and wondered if it were free. "Nope, but I find out the price on my statement." We left our shoes with the locker room attendant, "Do we tip him?" he wondered. [/size]


Yes, and monthly minimums are a reason many clubs struggle to retain members outside of specialty categories like "Professional Junior Memberships," etc.

These are all things worthy of scrutiny by an intelligent, discriminating market.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT straw poll appropriate guest behavior
« Reply #174 on: August 10, 2021, 02:14:32 PM »
oops
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

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