[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

I post what I think and say it candidly. You and anyone else can disagree -- I've been to FL plenty of times to draw my own conclusion -- frankly it's the same ballpark from what Tom Doak said in CG years ago. The state does have a few courses of note but when pitted against the top dogs that have emerged over the last 10-15 years or so one would need to be blind not to admit the very obvious thing -- the quality land being used for such courses (e.g. Ballyneal, Rock Creek, Kingsley Club, Black Mesa, et al of that type) is miles beyond what makes up Florida golf.

I don't doubt there is good golf in FL - but nothing that really moves the meter for national considertion. Seriously, I don't see any FL course -- save for maybe TPC / Sawgrass and possibly Seminole that has the goods to break through a top 50 USA listing.

Steve, I didn't resurrect this thread -- someone else did. I go to FL each and every year with the hope in being pleasantly surprised. There's a lot of good courses that provide a pleasant diversion -- clearly golf of some type is better than no golf when one is freezing.

Steve, there's been no "blanket" statement -- the sheer preponderance of what calls itself golf in FL is simply low level stuff. If I'm misplaced then so are others -- including Doak. Certain other states are poor in othher areas -- NY and Pennsy have great private courses but the sheer lack of depth they have on the public side when held against the depth of private courses is also an interesting dynamic. All of the observations I have made come from me actually playing the courses in question. The statements are no more than my opinions. If you see my comments as "attitude" driven well I repect your take but don't see it that way.

Thanks for your comments.



i
so I have to respect and take your word for comparing/ranking things, but I don't need the attitude sometimes offered..

[JC Jones]

I haven't played there in over 20 years, but certainly there's something of worth over there.. I expect transplant JC Jones to find it as he goes exploring, but would bet he can't wait to get back to Mich and play Belvedere no matter what he finds.

Are you saying my love for Belvedere affects my objectivity?

I have played a ton of golf course in the Orlando area after many years of traveling there and a few in the Miami area.  The last two courses I've played, Sugarloaf Mountain and West Palm Beach, are the best two courses I've played in Florida.  Neither of them are BETTER than Belvedere (I'm not saying they are worse). 

There are, however, some who would challenge me to a death match over whether Belvedere is worth the praise it gets here.

[Steve Lang]

   JC, would you say those best FLA courses have 6-12+ good holes?  Is that what makes them no better or worse than the Bel? 

[JC Jones]

Sugarloaf has 17 good holes.  No spectacular holes and only one bad hole (the 18th).  WPB had 18 good holes, no weak holes and a couple great holes.  To me, Belvedere has 3 weak holes (though 1 of them could be great if restored to its original form), 6 great holes and 9 good holes.  Belvedere is more fun than WPB which is more fun that Sugarloaf.

Keep in mind though, these are all really good courses and I'd give them all a 6.5-7 on the Doak scale.

[Mike Sweeney]

1. Not sure what JC's hang up is on 18 at Sugarloaf? Sugarloaf lacks great holes but all 18 are good to very good.

2. Matt - stop tap dancing. Have you played the courses I listed?

3. I am currently freezing my butski off in Connecticut which has Yale and ........ Who would not trade CT for Florida at any time of the year for golf? I think I would trade my beloved Rhode Island for Florida and Mr. Moore up there in Maine gets thrown under the bus for Florida golf and Mickey. New Hampshire, Vermont......... Florida golf is very good, you just have to do a little legwork, something that Matt has forgotten. 

If you take Pine Valley out of the equation, I think it is an even trade with Jersey!

[JC Jones]

1. Not sure what JC's hang up is on 18 at Sugarloaf? Sugarloaf lacks great holes but all 18 are good to very good.

I don't particularly care for holes, especially finishing holes, that go straight up a hill.  Seems to me that it is a flaw in the routing to get to a point where the only way to get home is a 450 yard par 5 straight up a hill. 

The fact that you'd trade golf in the NE for Florida golf simply because you can play all year long is non-sense.  You'd trade quantity for quality.  Its a wonder Merion is like your backyard, you wouldn't notice good architecture if it bit you in the butt.

[Mike Sweeney]

JC said: I don't particularly care for holes, especially finishing holes, that go straight up a hill.  Seems to me that it is a flaw in the routing to get to a point where the only way to get home is a 450 yard par 5 straight up a hill.  

Well I guess we can skip The Creek and National Golf Links of America next summer!

JC said: The fact that you'd trade golf in the NE for Florida golf simply because you can play all year long is non-sense.  You'd trade quantity for quality.

Where did I say the Northeast? There is no way I would trade NY or Mass for Florida. I said Jersey is an even trade for Florida (sans Pine Valley).

FL GOLF Magazine Top 100

Baltusrol GC (Lower)
Somerset Hills Country Club
Trump National GC Bedminster
Plainfield CC
Baltusrol GC (Upper)
Ridgewood CC


NJ Golf Magazine Top 100

Seminole
TPC Sawgrass
Calusa Pines
WW Pine Barrens
Trump International
The Concession
Jupiter Hills

And I will take Mountain Lake over everything on the Jersey list except for Plainfield and Somerset. I have changed my mind. I will take Florida over Jersey (sans PV)!

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

I will be at the PGA Show later this month and will play the ones you mentioned. I have played WW/PB and it's a fine layout -- for FL. Is it a top 100 for the entire USA -- NO.

Look forward to playing the C&C layout and heading over to Concession as I have been told by a few "new" Nicklaus fans that the course is quite good.

Mike, I have played well over 100 layouts in FL and that list contains nearly all of the so-called "great" couses there in the Sunshine State.

My homework will take in the assignment you mentioned -- just realize this NJ blows away FL on the private side of things -- if you throw out PV -- then I say you need to throw out Seminole. On the public side FL wins over Jersey but Mike get real OK -- we are talking about a state that is just beyond 8,000 square miles compared to one that's over 50,000 square miles.

Mike, I'd simply put up Essex and Bergen Counties against the total likes of CT !



 

[JC Jones]

Sweens,

I've only seen pictures of both but neither are close to as uphill as the 18th at Sugarloaf.  I'm not saying I have a problem with uphill holes, just ones that are straight up and Sugarloaf is straight up.  Better routing could have softened that climb.

[Mike Sweeney]

Sweens,

I've only seen pictures of both but neither are close to as uphill as the 18th at Sugarloaf.  I'm not saying I have a problem with uphill holes, just ones that are straight up and Sugarloaf is straight up.  Better routing could have softened that climb.

Bald Peak takes a hit too! Actually it is the 9th hole at Bald Peak but it is a 460ish par 5.

I am sure someone here can figure out a way to measure, but if you want to make it interesting, we can make a little wager. You get Sugarloaf 18 and I get Sand Hills 18. I say Sand Hills is steeper than Sugarloaf, it just plays as a par 4.

[Tony Weiler]

Sugarloaf has 17 good holes.  No spectacular holes and only one bad hole (the 18th).  WPB had 18 good holes, no weak holes and a couple great holes.  To me, Belvedere has 3 weak holes (though 1 of them could be great if restored to its original form), 6 great holes and 9 good holes.  Belvedere is more fun than WPB which is more fun that Sugarloaf.

Keep in mind though, these are all really good courses and I'd give them all a 6.5-7 on the Doak scale.

JC, Doak himself gives WWPB an 8!

[JC Jones]

You can see the green from the tee on Sand Hills 18.  At Sugarloaf you can maybe see the first 125 yards of the hole and it keeps climbing from there.  In terms you would understand, its the difference between a concave and a convex supply curve. 

Question back to you, why is Sugarloaf only a Sweeney 6 and not higher?

[JC Jones]

Sugarloaf has 17 good holes.  No spectacular holes and only one bad hole (the 18th).  WPB had 18 good holes, no weak holes and a couple great holes.  To me, Belvedere has 3 weak holes (though 1 of them could be great if restored to its original form), 6 great holes and 9 good holes.  Belvedere is more fun than WPB which is more fun that Sugarloaf.

Keep in mind though, these are all really good courses and I'd give them all a 6.5-7 on the Doak scale.

JC, Doak himself gives WWPB an 8!

WPB = West Palm Beach Golf Course not WWPB or World Woods Pine Barrens.  I've not played the latter.

[Mike Sweeney]

You can see the green from the tee on Sand Hills 18.  At Sugarloaf you can maybe see the first 125 yards of the hole and it keeps climbing from there.  In terms you would understand, its the difference between a concave and a convex supply curve. 

Question back to you, why is Sugarloaf only a Sweeney 6 and not higher?

With better conditioning it would climb to 6.5. Higher is tougher as it is a one hill course which is not a great thing (see Bald Peak  and the greens are very good on the Florida scale, but below average on the C&C scale.

The high here is CT is supposed to be 23 degrees tomorrow and a Doak 6 at Sugarloaf in Florida sounds much better that a Doak 6 at Sugarloaf Ski area in Maine with Mr Moore tomorrow.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

Curious to know -- have you played any FL courses that you rate as high as a Doak 8 ?

If not -- what's the best of the lot you have played to date ?

thanks ...

[Patrick Hodgdon]

You can see the green from the tee on Sand Hills 18.  At Sugarloaf you can maybe see the first 125 yards of the hole and it keeps climbing from there.  In terms you would understand, its the difference between a concave and a convex supply curve. 

Question back to you, why is Sugarloaf only a Sweeney 6 and not higher?

Agree with JC here. I don't have anything against uphill finishing holes. I just don't like mostly blind approach uphill finishing holes due to the convex nature of the hill/mountain. 

As for Sugarloaf I think one could argue that the downhill #4 could be the one great hole the course has. Doak 6 for me but could climb to 7 if the greens were running a bit faster maybe.

Sweeney I will be curious to hear if Calusa Pines is a 7 or 8 on your scale. (And how it compares to Mountain Lake) I know we both agreed it would be a tough course to play everyday because it's beats you up so much. I think it's a 7/7.5 but could be argued for as an 8. I consider it better than Hideout which I would give a 6.5/7. Part of the problem is comparing CP to other courses down here because it stands out from everything else so much.

[John_Conley]

Matt, worth seeing on this trip if you haven't played them yet.

Sugarloaf Mountain
Bella Colina
Juliette Falls
Golden Hills

Hope it warms up for you.  JOHN

[Matt_Ward]

John:

Thanks for the heads-up -- I may have some time prior to the PGA Show to do some exploring.

Be curious to know what Doak number you would give each of them and what your top ten are for the state?

Looking forward to feeing my hands again given the cold snap we are getting now !

You around the end of the month when the show starts ?

[Mike Sweeney]

Patrick and Matt,

To try and put some Wardian perspective around my Florida picks that I have played, here is Matt's Top 20 Metro Area list from an old thread:

TOP TEN
 
Bayonne (NJ)
Bethpage / Black (NY)
Fisher's Island (NY)
Garden City GC (NY)
NGLA (NY)
Plainfield (NJ)
Sebonack (NY)
Shinnecock Hills (NY)
Westchester / West (NY)
Winged Foot / West (NY)

 
SECOND TEN
 
Essex County CC (NJ)
Fenway (NY)
Forsgate / Banks (NJ)
Hollywood (NJ)
Montclair #2 & #4 (NJ)
Piping Rock (NY)
Quaker Ridge (NY)
Sleepy Hollow (NY)
Trump National / Bedminster (NJ)
Winged Foot / East (NY)

World Woods PB would bump Bayonne if Matt lets me bump a course that I have not played. It would bump Winged Foot West on the fun scale for me too. I agree with the Tom Doak Doak scale rating of 8 for WWPB. I wish it was just a little closer to Disney to play it every year.

Calusa Pines is not an 8 but it would bump Hollywood on Matt's list as it is more consistent. The Wood has a bunch of better holes than Calusa but it has a few average holes too. Both play tough.

Mountain Lake would bump Forsgate but not Sleepy or Essex in the Macdonald family on Matt's list. Matt knows I like Forsgate a bunch but ML has better greens.

In the head to head Calusa vs ML 10 round test, ML wins 7-3 but that is a reflection of what the courses are for me. In the winter with a swing that is being warmed up by lifting luggage off a plane, Calusa is a tough course to jump right into for three straight days where ML is like putting on a comfy pair of slippers.

[Sean_A]

JC said: I don't particularly care for holes, especially finishing holes, that go straight up a hill.  Seems to me that it is a flaw in the routing to get to a point where the only way to get home is a 450 yard par 5 straight up a hill.  

Well I guess we can skip The Creek and National Golf Links of America next summer!

Or, JC could happily play these courses, enjoy them immensely yet not care for the finishers.   

So far as quality goes in terms of FL and snowy states, the fact that golf can be played all year round in FL would be a huge boost in my way of looking at it.  From a practical stand point, there isn't much good in having a world class course which can't be played for a significant part of the year.

Ciao

[Keith Phillips]

Mike, I have played half of Matt's Met list and generally agree with his views on the area - I DISagree with him on Florida, but my experience is limited to a handful of solid courses in Jupiter area - I have played Medalist, McArthur, Old Marsh, Dye Preserve, The Ritz (Jupiter) and Banyan, all of which I thought were terrific - at each of these clubs the overall experience was at a very high level...terrific and interesting golf, outstanding conditioning, great practice facilities, experienced caddies, fine clubhouses etc - I don't know how to rank courses on the Doak scale, but I rate a few of those clubs as '10s' on the 'Phillips scale' of 'now that I'm turning 50 where would I be VERY HAPPY to spend my winters playing golf!'

[Jud_T]

.  From a practical stand point, there isn't much good in having a world class course which can't be played for a significant part of the year.

I guess that eliminates most of the best U. S. courses....

[Deucie Bies]

I am biased, but for those who have played it, what do you think about Lake Nona?  In no way do I think it is a great course (and especially now with the pitiful shape of the greens), but I do think ut has some good holes and is a fun course to play everyday.

[Matt_Ward]

Keith:

I salute you in having cherry-picked off the courses you named. I have played a number of them and concur they are quite good. However, you did focus much of your glowing accounts on the personal service dimension (e.g. caddies, clubhouse, practice facilities). Not to diminish those qualities but what does have to do with the architecture?

I also don't know your home area but if it happens to be in the northeast -- would you trade playing your top tier courses in your "neck of the woods" for the ones you mentioned?

Deucie:

Lake Nona is a fine Florida course ... the emphasis is on Florida course. It should never have been rated in the USA top 100 but it helps to have some big time names associated with it.

Mike:

WW/PB over Bayonne.

Please help me remain standing before I fall over with laughter. By the way, just to let you know, I do like WW/PB very much -- but I see an 8 for the layout as being a tad too high on a nationwide comparison test.

Remove WF/W. Why's that Mike -- too tough to handle for you! I said this before many people wax poetic about Fenway and QR and avoid WF/W because of the good old fashioned butt kicking they generally get when there. The course doesn't elicit much love and as a result gets dissed by many.

Mike, when's the last time you played Forsgate? Have you seen the course in 2009 ? I will be seeing whether ML has the better greens that you claim but any fan of Banks will quickly come to Forsgate's defense given the diversity in shape, size and angle that the NJ course provides.

I like the tag line for ML -- like a "comfy pair of slippers!"

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Sweeney,

Pine Tree and Boca Rio would probably bump some of those courses, including Bayonne.
Perhaps you'll venture south one of these days and find out for yourself

Nature dealt most of Southeast Florida a "Flat hand", thus, those golf courses are ALL architect, whereas, courses in the metro NY area had the luxury of diverse land forms.

Doral, as Dick Wilson designed it, should also be considered.

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