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Mike Hendren

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Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #75 on: May 27, 2021, 01:33:53 PM »
If there's one thing I've learned from this thread it's this:  Ben Hogan and Bob Jones are the most underrated golfers of all time.    Phil couldn't carry their jockstraps if he backed up a truck.  Both are in the discussion with Nicklaus and Woods if you do your homework.  These days they likely hang out a lot with Young Tom Morris as well. 


As for Lee Buck Trevino, he was a tour rookie at the age of 28.  By that age Mickelson had 13 tour wins. 


Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Peter Pallotta

Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #76 on: May 27, 2021, 01:41:18 PM »
Sorry if this sounds snide, but Phil wouldn’t really be in this conversation if he hadn’t won the PGA. He does belong in the conversation, which proves the enormity of this major victory at his age.
I think Phil is the most wholly -American- of the greats, or maybe more accurately the most -PGA Tour suited- among them. What I mean is: he had a lot of tour wins [on modern-generic tour courses] before that first major, not surprisingly at Augusta; and by his own admission for a long time he was most [or almost solely] adept at the American/aerial game, and it took him many years before he started to understand how to play links golf, and to relish it. Does this mean he is also the most -limited- of the greats? No, I don't think so. But still, my list would be:

1.Woods
2. Nicklaus
3. Hogan
4. Player
5. Jones
6. Snead
7. Hagen
8. Nelson
9. Watson
T 10. Trevino-Mickelson
12. Seve
13. Faldo
14. Palmer
15. Casper
« Last Edit: May 27, 2021, 01:50:05 PM by Peter Pallotta »

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #77 on: May 27, 2021, 02:06:10 PM »
Who does Phil compare to in the acting world? Because I think Sean Penn has one more Oscar left in him that would be my choice but...Ben Affleck laying down the repeat on JLO wins him the award. If Phil is Ben Affleck who is Matt Damon?

Stewart Abramson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #78 on: May 27, 2021, 02:37:12 PM »
If Phil is Ben Affleck who is Matt Damon?


Good Will Jordan Spieth ??

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #79 on: May 27, 2021, 02:44:33 PM »
If Phil is Ben Affleck who is Matt Damon?


Good Will Jordan Spieth ??


It's tough. I was thinking someone even better than Phil just cause the CC poker scene in Rounders. Hate to say it but Trevino fits the bill.

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #80 on: May 27, 2021, 02:49:06 PM »
So I tried crude formula given that I did not see several of them play (or at least in their prime).


3 points for Major
1 point for Regular (bit of thumb on scale for PlayerSeve and Faldo because I included European Tour wins)
25 bonus points for a career Grand Slam but included only one for Woods and Nicklaus)


I did not know results until after I made up the formula.


Nicklaus 152
Woods 152
Hogan 116
Snead 103
Hagen 88
Sarazen 84
Palmer 83
Player 80
Seve 74
Nelson 67
Watson 63
Mickelson 63
Casper 60
Faldo 54
Middlecoff 47
Trevino 47


Of course Jones would need to slotted high up on list. The formula is a bit unfair to Player given he won all over the world including some European tournaments before the European tour was established.


But the list does comport with how most people ranked Phil.


Ira




« Last Edit: May 28, 2021, 06:31:43 AM by Ira Fishman »

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #81 on: May 27, 2021, 03:18:15 PM »
So I tried crude formula given that I did not see several of them play (or at least in their prime).


3 points for Major
1 point for Regular (bit of thumb on scale for PlayerSeve and Faldo because I included European Tour wins)
25 bonus points for a career Grand Slam but included only one for Woods and Nicklaus)


I did not know results until after I made up the formula.


Nicklaus 152
Woods 152
Hogan 116
Snead 103
Hagen 88
Sarazen 84
Palmer 83
Player 80
Nelson 67
Seve 64
Watson 63
Mickelson 63
Casper 60
Faldo 54
Middlecoff 47
Trevino 47


Of course Jones would need to slotted high up on list. The formula is a bit unfair to Player given he won all over the world including some European tournaments before the European tour was established.


But the list does comport with how most people ranked Phil.


Ira


That's a pretty good list.
I'd bump Palmer up a notch for impact.
I'd probably pull Nelson back a bit piling up wins in 1944, though he played great in that stretch.
I think many underestimate the impact Seve had on worldwide golf

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #82 on: May 27, 2021, 03:29:43 PM »
Well on to the 4th page and no mention of Peter Thomson....5 Open wins and 86 tournament wins worldwide. The only player to win a modern major 3 years in a row.

I am not saying he belongs in the Top 10 or even the Top 15, but he does deserve to be mentioned. :) 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Thomson_(golfer)

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #83 on: May 27, 2021, 03:53:18 PM »
Sorry if this sounds snide, but Phil wouldn’t really be in this conversation if he hadn’t won the PGA. He does belong in the conversation, which proves the enormity of this major victory at his age.
I think Phil is the most wholly -American- of the greats, or maybe more accurately the most -PGA Tour suited- among them. What I mean is: he had a lot of tour wins [on modern-generic tour courses] before that first major, not surprisingly at Augusta; and by his own admission for a long time he was most [or almost solely] adept at the American/aerial game, and it took him many years before he started to understand how to play links golf, and to relish it. Does this mean he is also the most -limited- of the greats? No, I don't think so. But still, my list would be:

1.Woods
2. Nicklaus
3. Hogan
4. Player
5. Jones
6. Snead
7. Hagen
8. Nelson
9. Watson
T 10. Trevino-Mickelson
12. Seve
13. Faldo
14. Palmer
15. Casper


Palmer at 14 is the most clueless opinion ever expressed on anything ever discussed on this site. It is so stupid I feel like I'm being catfished.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #84 on: May 27, 2021, 06:12:10 PM »

14. Palmer
15. Casper


Palmer at 14 is the most clueless opinion ever expressed on anything ever discussed on this site. It is so stupid I feel like I'm being catfished.
 
 ;D


"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Mike_DeVries

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #85 on: May 27, 2021, 06:40:38 PM »
Well on to the 4th page and no mention of Peter Thomson....5 Open wins and 86 tournament wins worldwide. The only player to win a modern major 3 years in a row.

I am not saying he belongs in the Top 10 or even the Top 15, but he does deserve to be mentioned. :) 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Thomson_(golfer)


Similarly, Roberto DeVicenzo is not given his just due.  230 wins (Wiki says 229, but I thought it was 230) worldwide, including 15 different National Opens (multiple wins on many of those) & the first winner of the US Senior Open in 1980 at 57 years old.


Granted, many of those victories were throughout Central and South America, but think of the travel he had to endure in his day and that he didn't  play much in the USA, due to the language (he was conscious of his speech, although I thought his English was quite good when I had the chance to sit alone with him for an hour back in 2008 or so). 


It is especially relevant this week, as he won at Colonial in 1957.


He was a real champion and was still smashing 250 drives down the middle at age 84 - impressive hands and a visceral stroke at impact.

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #86 on: May 27, 2021, 07:06:49 PM »
Sorry, but you moderators really need to consider bifurcating, trifurcating, quadfurcating or quinfurcating the discussion group.
Some recent threads are SO far removed from golf course architecture, it’s becoming evident that folks want to discuss topics very removed from the intent of this DG.
I, for one, am more than happy for such a move. Please consider this idea. It definitely works on other DG’s.
Much love,
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #87 on: May 27, 2021, 07:20:51 PM »
"In the 37 times Woods and Mickelson have been paired together, Woods has outplayed Mickelson only 18 times to Phil’s 15. (On the other four occasions, they shot the same score).
And here’s an even more telling stat, courtesy of analytics whiz Justin Ray of the 15th Club: From 2005-2014, Mickelson averaged 1.36 strokes gained per round on the PGA Tour; when grouped with Woods, that number jumped to 2.61.
“He’s one hell of a competitor and it’s always a challenge to try to beat him,” Woods said of Mickelson."

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Stewart Abramson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #88 on: May 27, 2021, 08:56:56 PM »
So I tried crude formula given that I did not see several of them play (or at least in their prime).


3 points for Major
1 point for Regular (bit of thumb on scale for PlayerSeve and Faldo because I included European Tour wins)
25 bonus points for a career Grand Slam but included only one for Woods and Nicklaus)


I did not know results until after I made up the formula.


Nicklaus 152
Woods 152
Hogan 116
Snead 103
Hagen 88
Sarazen 84
Palmer 83
Player 80
Nelson 67
Seve 64
Watson 63
Mickelson 63
Casper 60
Faldo 54
Middlecoff 47
Trevino 47


Of course Jones would need to slotted high up on list. The formula is a bit unfair to Player given he won all over the world including some European tournaments before the European tour was established.


But the list does comport with how most people ranked Phil.


Ira


But what about the Braids, Vardons and Morrises ? Are only modern golfers being considered or is it the best of all time? Hard to compare across such different times

Phil Burr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #89 on: May 27, 2021, 10:42:34 PM »
Jones & Hagen are the toughest for me to rank given the difference between professional and amateur golf in that era.  One must first accept that they were clearly the two best players of the 1920s.  Although Hagen was 10 years older, Jones retired at age 28, meaning that Hagen was still in his prime during Jones’ reign of dominance.


Of Hagen’s 11 majors, 9 came in events where Jones was not in the field (5 PGA Championships which were not open to amateurs and 4 Open Championships in which Jones did not make the trip).  Of Jones’ 13 majors, 6 came in the US and British amateurs where Hagen was obviously ineligible.  Competing head to head in 11 US Opens from 1920 to 1930, Jones definitely had the edge.  He had 4 wins and 4 seconds in those 11 tournaments & his worst finish was T-11.  Hagen was no slouch with 7 top 10s, but no wins.


It must be pointed out that in Hagen’s heyday there were only 3 professional majors, as the Masters was first played in 1934, and Hagen was pretty much done as he only scored one individual PGA tour victory after the Masters was started.  11 major wins from only three tournaments is nearly as impressive as Tiger’s 15 wins from four tournaments.


How would the careers of Jones and Hagen have differed if they’d competed head to head more often in majors and other events that mattered as opposed to a succession of unsanctioned exhibition?  That’s anyone’s guess.[size=78%] [/size]

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #90 on: May 28, 2021, 02:29:03 AM »
Well on to the 4th page and no mention of Peter Thomson....5 Open wins and 86 tournament wins worldwide. The only player to win a modern major 3 years in a row.

I am not saying he belongs in the Top 10 or even the Top 15, but he does deserve to be mentioned. :) 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Thomson_(golfer)

I didn't include guys like Braid and Thompson because I set a minimum of winning at least two different majors. It feels a bit harsh on Braid, but Vardon did it so I drew the line at 2 majors. It doesn't feel harsh on Thompson. He could have won a US Open.

If I have a golf hero it's Braid.

Ciao
« Last Edit: May 28, 2021, 08:25:13 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #91 on: May 28, 2021, 06:33:05 AM »
So I tried crude formula given that I did not see several of them play (or at least in their prime).


3 points for Major
1 point for Regular (bit of thumb on scale for PlayerSeve and Faldo because I included European Tour wins)
25 bonus points for a career Grand Slam but included only one for Woods and Nicklaus)


I did not know results until after I made up the formula.


Nicklaus 152
Woods 152
Hogan 116
Snead 103
Hagen 88
Sarazen 84
Palmer 83
Player 80
Seve 74
Nelson 67
Watson 63
Mickelson 63
Casper 60
Faldo 54
Middlecoff 47
Trevino 47


Of course Jones would need to slotted high up on list. The formula is a bit unfair to Player given he won all over the world including some European tournaments before the European tour was established.


But the list does comport with how most people ranked Phil.


Ira


I made a mistake in adding for Seve. List above fixed. He traded places with Nelson.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #92 on: May 28, 2021, 07:47:01 AM »
Jones & Hagen are the toughest for me to rank given the difference between professional and amateur golf in that era.  One must first accept that they were clearly the two best players of the 1920s.  Although Hagen was 10 years older, Jones retired at age 28, meaning that Hagen was still in his prime during Jones’ reign of dominance.


Of Hagen’s 11 majors, 9 came in events where Jones was not in the field (5 PGA Championships which were not open to amateurs and 4 Open Championships in which Jones did not make the trip).  Of Jones’ 13 majors, 6 came in the US and British amateurs where Hagen was obviously ineligible.  Competing head to head in 11 US Opens from 1920 to 1930, Jones definitely had the edge.  He had 4 wins and 4 seconds in those 11 tournaments & his worst finish was T-11.  Hagen was no slouch with 7 top 10s, but no wins.


It must be pointed out that in Hagen’s heyday there were only 3 professional majors, as the Masters was first played in 1934, and Hagen was pretty much done as he only scored one individual PGA tour victory after the Masters was started.  11 major wins from only three tournaments is nearly as impressive as Tiger’s 15 wins from four tournaments.


How would the careers of Jones and Hagen have differed if they’d competed head to head more often in majors and other events that mattered as opposed to a succession of unsanctioned exhibition?  That’s anyone’s guess.


Phil


The problem of using the modern definition of what is a major is that it doesn't take into account the Western Open which, as Steve Wilson pointed out previously, Hagen won 5 times. Likewise with James Braid, he might not have travelled to the US to compete in the US Open like Vardon and Ray, but he did win the News of The World 5 times I think and that was probably second only to the Open in standing.


Niall

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #93 on: May 28, 2021, 07:55:10 AM »
Well on to the 4th page and no mention of Peter Thomson....5 Open wins and 86 tournament wins worldwide. The only player to win a modern major 3 years in a row.

I am not saying he belongs in the Top 10 or even the Top 15, but he does deserve to be mentioned. :) 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Thomson_(golfer)


DT


Indeed. Not sure Bobby Locke has had a mention either. Maybe the title of the thread should be changed to "Where does Mickelson stand among the greats of American golf ?"  ;D


Niall

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #94 on: May 28, 2021, 08:16:00 AM »
Well, you can't mention guys like Braid, Vardon, and Morris without mentioning guys like Vinny Giles.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Phil Burr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #95 on: May 28, 2021, 10:12:40 AM »
Thomson & Locke are worthy of mention and understandably difficult to rank because of the limited visibility of their home tours.  We must also include the gentleman from Argentina, Roberto de Vicenzo.  He strikes me as the Cy Young of pro golf, whose 229 credited wins dwarfs everybody else on this list the way Young’s 500+ baseball wins is incomprehensible in a sport than may never see another 300-game winner.  Along with one Open Championship and a “tie” for the ‘68 Masters, Roberto had 9 top-3 finishes in majors.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #96 on: May 28, 2021, 10:16:07 AM »
Well, you can't mention guys like Braid, Vardon, and Morris without mentioning guys like Vinny Giles.




Ha




Seriously, it's perfectly fine to mention Thompson, Locke, Braid etc...just state where you think they should go. Most importantly, who do they bump down and how do you defend that position? All very nice and civil like...

Phil Burr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #97 on: May 28, 2021, 10:26:20 AM »
Don’t know enough about Braid, but certainly Thomson, Locke & De Vicenzo deserve top 50 slots because of playing accomplishments and the term that has been regularly attributed to Arnold’s & Seve’s spots: impact.  They were the founding fathers of golf not just in their countries, but on their continents.  Is Jumbo Ozaki their Asian equivalent?  He would give representation to all 6 golfing continents.

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #98 on: May 28, 2021, 10:45:29 AM »
A US Am at 18(?) and a PGA at 50 is some pretty sustained high level playing.


For me he's at the same level as Watson and Ballesteros--top 8-12 all time.

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #99 on: May 28, 2021, 10:38:31 PM »
So I tried crude formula ...

3 points for Major
1 point for Regular
25 bonus points for a career Grand Slam but included only one for Woods and Nicklaus)



Ira


I developed my own formula system but a few different components with a heavy bias towards career performance in Majors


10pts for a Major (on the basis = pinnacle of performance)
1pts for R/Up in a Major
0.5pts for Third in a Major


Adjustors:
10pts if achieved 2x Majors in a year (eg: Nickalus 5x = 50)
50pts if achieved 3x Majors in a year (eg: Hogan & Woods)
200pts if achieved 4x Majors in a year (eg: Jones)


Other Adjustors:
Additional pts for 2 / 3 / 4 different Majors
US Tour / European Tour / ROW Tour victories
Other adjustors


Results


Jones
Nicklaus
Woods

Hogan
Player
Hagen

Sarazen
Snead
Palmer

Watson
Vardon
Nelson

Trevino
Mickelson
Ballesteros















« Last Edit: May 28, 2021, 10:45:57 PM by Kevin Pallier »