News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Formula Architecture
« on: April 24, 2021, 04:03:39 PM »
Watching the New Orleans tournament and can make a decent guess at what each hole looks like knowing little other than the architect and the hole number.

  Pete Dye and Raynor/McDonald are generally held in high esteem here.  Yet, their architecture is very formulaic. 

Raynor had his templates but I would argue Dye had his own.  If I am playing a Dye course, I expect some combination of a par 4, par 3 and par 5 to finish.  I expect the 3rd or 4th hole on each side to be a short but not drivable par 4, I expect some draw/fade long par 4s in the middle of each side and I expect the par threes to faintly resemble Raynor’s templates.   

It is a good formula but a formula nonetheless. We criticize other for being formulaic, but if the formula is good, does it matter?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Formula Architecture
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2021, 06:03:09 PM »
The answer to your question is entirely a matter of opinion.


For those who like a particular architect's formula, they are comfortably assured the architect's other work will be something they also like.  They won't be disappointed, but they also won't be surprised to the upside.  Some people would get bored with this over time.  Others would not.


Perhaps an important follow-up question to your question is, how many architects have had a formula you want to play over and over again?  There are certainly many who have not.


Personally, I would get bored with a formula, so I try to make each of my courses its own individual thing.  I have always assumed that's what I get paid for, rather than for my "brand".

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Formula Architecture
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2021, 08:50:03 PM »
I enjoy the Dye formula but for some reason repetition reduces the magic.   The big variable seems to be how much leeway the player is given to bail out and how big the punishment is for hubris.   


People seem to have the opposite reaction to the Raynor formula.   I have suspected that people love the formula because they can name the holes and look good.  I have not played Raynor’s best but have enjoyed my experiences so far. 

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Formula Architecture
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2021, 03:17:45 AM »
In theory formulaic architecture is a bit ho hum. In reality it depends on the formula and how often it is encountered. The MacRayBanks formula is experienced by so few that it is a non issue. Dye has many public options, but their setting is so varied that any such formula is largely negated because folks likely won't pick up on it or mind.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Formula Architecture
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2021, 04:08:31 AM »
In theory formulaic architecture is a bit ho hum. In reality it depends on the formula and how often it is encountered. The MacRayBanks formula is experienced by so few that it is a non issue. Dye has many public options, but their setting is so varied that any such formula is largely negated because folks likely won't pick up on it or mind.

Ciao


I agree Sean, that the formula although prevalent in the templates is so few that how could anyone become bored with it.  If one only plays their home course all the time, isn't that the same issue? If one wants to be bored try race car driving with nothing but left hand turns for hours on end!  ;D
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Formula Architecture
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2021, 05:31:45 AM »
Familiarity breeds contempt, as the saying goes. Occasionally dipping the toes into something different can be a good way of re-establishing why what you usually like is what you like.
atb

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Formula Architecture
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2021, 06:27:38 AM »

People seem to have the opposite reaction to the Raynor formula. I have suspected that people love the formula because they can name the holes and look good. 


Look good to who? It’s possible that people like the formula because the holes are compelling to play. ;)





Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Formula Architecture
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2021, 08:41:02 AM »
I agree Dye used some formula in his work, especially as his career advanced, but man, did you take a terrible Dye course as an example to use. I saw about 5 minutes of the coverage yesterday and thought to myself the TPC New Orleans has got to be the most boring Dye course ever built. It's got to be one of the worst courses they play each year on the Tour.
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

John Emerson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Formula Architecture
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2021, 09:51:02 AM »
If the formula is roughly the same for some of the architects then this goes to show you that the land and topography are THE most critical element of design.  You can’t replicate that.
“There’s links golf, then everything else.”

Peter Pallotta

Re: Formula Architecture
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2021, 11:45:21 AM »
It's a thin line between formula and formulaic. On the other hand, for 100+ years no architect alive (and only the rarest of golfers) ever had to worry about it.

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Formula Architecture
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2021, 04:18:41 PM »
Neither of TPC Louisiana's nines ends on a long par 4. I reckon there are very few Dye courses of which that's true.


What effect does the fact that Pete Dye seldom had premium sites to work on - and often worked on sites that had virtually zero natural character - have on this discussion? (Yes, Whistling Straits, Ocean Course...exceptions to the rule.)


TPC Louisiana seems to be a flat swamp course in similar fashion to TPC Sawgrass. I haven't played it but the firm conditions that have prevailed this week have made the course very watchable, IMO. I see some nice angled tee shots, greens with waves and shelves that can be accessed with excellent shots, pot bunkers whose mounds obscure certain hole locations, short-game options around the greens. That strikes me as a pretty good slate of values on a course whose site had nothing to begin with.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Formula Architecture
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2021, 04:40:17 PM »
TPC Louisiana seems to be a flat swamp course in similar fashion to TPC Sawgrass. I haven't played it but the firm conditions that have prevailed this week have made the course very watchable, IMO. I see some nice angled tee shots, greens with waves and shelves that can be accessed with excellent shots, pot bunkers whose mounds obscure certain hole locations, short-game options around the greens. That strikes me as a pretty good slate of values on a course whose site had nothing to begin with.

Tim,

Completely agreed here with your last paragraph.

Its been a real treat watching these guys strategize to get close to pin positions that look totally gettable on most other weeks on Tour. It seems they have benefited from the recent work enabling these greens to be firm again, but when these guys are hitting wedges to the middle of the greens and they're running off the back, I think its exactly the type of defenses GCA advocating for years on GCA.  It may not look a delight as Matt claims, but looks to offer some interesting riddles for even the best players in the world to solve.  Give me this any day over the water-infested Florida Tour courses or various target-style courses they play.

P.S.  I loved how that little bunker in front of the green on the first par 5 on the back really gave em' fits with that front pin...

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Formula Architecture
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2021, 08:45:22 PM »
Jason,
I have talked a lot about this topic on this site.  Some agree with me and some don't.  The more you see of most (not all) architect's work, the more you see some patterns.  It is not a bad thing and as you said if the formula is good, it rarely ever matters.  Correct me if I am wrong but nobody ever hired Pete Dye to rebuild Crooked Stick, but if you play and study enough Pete Dye courses, you can see where there are similarities in what he likes to design.  They hired him because he could build great golf courses and many times on questionable sites. 
« Last Edit: April 25, 2021, 08:48:05 PM by Mark_Fine »

Matt MacIver

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Formula Architecture
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2021, 09:33:13 PM »
Formulas don’t matter because 79% of golfers play the same course 81% of the time, be it private country clubbers or local munis guys. And they don’t care about GCA. It’s only us that does.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Formula Architecture
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2021, 11:07:40 AM »
Matt Mc,


Is that a real statistic?


Mark Fine,


I think T Fazio, in his book, softened the word to "preferences" rather than formula, but most of us do have formulas or preferences.  And most of those are based on seeing what has worked before, i.e., not elicited a bunch of course manager or golfers complaints.  All formulaic design ideas started as stuff that worked well, and morphed into design standards.  Just like several govt regulations, where someone took a common sense idea and wrote it into law, where it becomes objectionable for its sameness regardless of circumstances, design standards can eventually raise some scorn.


Or, if form follows function, it makes some sense that formula follows function soon thereafter, because, in the end, most of a golf course functions the same from course to course.  At least in high play public courses, which have different basic function that a resort, club, or tournament course.


The OP example of par sequence and routing formulas is probably the least formulaic part of the design (see my post on designing for maintenance budget.)  Every site is different, (except the flat Florida swamps Pete got a lot of) and par sequence depends more on the property than any preference.


That said, I have a few routing preferences, based on common wisdom and experience.


Holes 1 and 10 (due to multi tee starts on weekends at many courses) should be longish but not tough.  Short par 4 and par 5 holes risk waiting to hit the second shot, if a par 5 is reachable, or if a par 4 is short enough where a muffed tee shot (so common on the first hole) still lands within reach of the green, so the golfer must wait longer to hit, rather than walk up and strike the shot, with no worries of hitting golfers on the green.


Par 3 holes slow play, so moving those as far back in the nine is better.  Reachable par 5's are best reserved for the latter 2-3 holes each nine for similar reasons.


As more and more research is done on the pace of play, I have added to my routing preferences, although it's not always achievable given the land.  Specifically, 18 similar difficulties par 4 holes would play the fastest.  So, instead of a hard hole followed by an easy one (or worse, the other way around!), it might make sense to have equal difficulty holes, but for different reasons, i.e., one hard tee shot and easier on other shots, one with a hard approach only, and one easy tee to green, but harder to putt, with overall difficulty about the same.  If you think about it, to avoid back ups, placing the harder holes first, and getting easier as you go would reduce waiting on each tee as the day went along!  Or, starting the round with a par 3 (or 4 consecutive ones!)  Getting harder as you go tends to back up play.


That isn't practical, as we like the rhythm of harder and easier holes. As per above, if par 3 holes back up play, it makes some sense to make the holes just before a par 3 harder, and just after, a bit easier, to slow down golfers before the hole, and speed them up after.  And, in general, par 3 holes should be easier just to get golfers through them (I know Ross said they can be a bit harder, but I don't think he thought about the pace of play as much)  And, I believe a sequence of a par 3 following a par 5 (one hole can have three groups on it at a time, vs. the par 3 allowing just one group, causing even more backup) is probably not a great idea (although the difficult long par 4 probably works)


In the end, I think formula tends to apply more to high play courses, with low play courses probably allowed a bit more leeway while still working, because in essense, high play courses must emphasize speed of play, while low play courses can emphasize challenge or whatever.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2021, 11:11:39 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Formula Architecture
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2021, 11:16:38 AM »
Jeff,


Has the focus on pace of play increased over time? I remember when 5 hour rounds were the norm. Now I barely tolerate anything over 4 hours.


Ira

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Formula Architecture
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2021, 11:23:40 AM »
Ira,


Played both days this weekend, once in a Chamber of Commerce scramble (4.5 hours) and once on a Sunday morning very busy public (my own design) and 5 hours.  So, from personal experience, I am not sure, LOL.  Although, yesterday, the pro did note that they started the day at 8 minute tee times, but at 10 O'clock, had one 10 minute gap, and then spaced out to 10 minutes, recognizing that spread out tee times probably do the most to speed up play (but compromising by stuffing the first few hours full.)


In design terms, there are now pace of play "experts" who have studied the situation, and while not everyone considers this truly new knowledge (to some extent, everyone always knew par 3 holes slowed up play, but the experts went about figuring out exactly why) I really believe designers should.  Again, Ross probably didn't have to, but when study after study says slow play deters golfers from golfing, maybe modern designers should add that in to our thought process, and try to use design to minimize a well known problem.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Formula Architecture
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2021, 11:29:27 AM »


 (to some extent, everyone always knew par 3 holes slowed up play, but the experts went about figuring out exactly why)


Jeff:


I understand that you're more likely to have to wait on the tee of a par-3 than on other holes.  But if "pace of play" is the measure of total time on the course, surely a par-3 still requires less total time to play than a 400-yard par-4, does it not?

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Formula Architecture
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2021, 11:44:25 AM »
Forrest always corrects me to say the intent is to improve the flow of play, not the pace of play, i.e., avoid frustrating back ups.  I think the biggest factor is that par 3 holes simply have less player capacity than longer holes.  Making them a bit easier, or making the tee shot on the next hole a really wide corridor helps, but probably total capacity has the biggest effect.


Yes, 3 shots to 4 or 5, shorter travel time from tee to green, etc.  So, yes, it would seem it would take a few minutes less to play a par 3, at least on an empty course. The average hole in a 4.5 hour round would take 15 minutes.  Maybe a 3 takes 14 and a 5 takes 16?  or 12, 15, and 18?[size=78%]  [/size]
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Formula Architecture
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2021, 11:51:38 AM »
Flow of play strikes me as a good concept. Even when time elapsed is reasonable, waiting on too many shots frustrates enjoyment. Our course has a long Par 3 as the second hole and a reasonably difficult Par 3 as the third hole. There is inevitably a wait at both holes, but then it opens up. Somehow it is psychologically helpful to get the back ups finished early in the round.


Ira

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Formula Architecture
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2021, 12:42:09 PM »
How many “ranked” courses have a par-3 as their 17th hole? I don’t know the answer, but it’s a LOT! Especially Dye courses (it seems).
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Formula Architecture
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2021, 09:50:27 PM »
How many “ranked” courses have a par-3 as their 17th hole? I don’t know the answer, but it’s a LOT! Especially Dye courses (it seems).


Of my own six top-ranked courses, Pacific Dunes, Rock Creek and Tara Iti have a par-3 17th.  Ballyneal, Barnbougle, and Cape Kidnappers do not.  I am not trying one way or the other, unlike the Spanish designer Javier Arana, who insisted that the 17th be a par-3 in all of his designs.

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Formula Architecture
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2021, 10:54:40 PM »
So it’s 50% for your top 6, not 33% if it were evenly divided with 4’s and 5’s. Are the other 3 mixed or all one or the other?


Did Arana state why he felt the 17th MUST be a par-3?
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Formula Architecture
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2021, 11:43:04 AM »
Does anyone know why 17's tend to be par 3's?  It has long felt like a good place for one.  Some reasons might include


Dye's idea that a 3-4-5 combo finish is one way to vary the challenge to be fair to all competitors.  If looking at real detail, you might look at the approach shot lengths and difficulties, the width of FW on the 4 and 5, green contours, etc. to create three distinct holes that give an advantage to a certain type of player.  But, changing pars is a start.


Most like to put the par 3 holes later in each nine because they tend to slow play, but few like a par 3 18th, believing the par 4 is the most balanced challenge for a finishing hole.


To be honest, back in the days of match play especially, where matches were often settled on the penultimate, rather than final hole, wouldn't a reachable par 5 be a better hole for 17?  Or, as Dye does it, 16 isn't terrible either.  And, having a hole to wait on reaching the green just before a par 3 might tend to balance out flow for both holes.


I guess my point is that not all formula is by default bad.  Pete probably had very definite reasons for the 5-3-4 combo to finish his courses.  And, design form follows function, not whim or cries from the peanut gallery....
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Formula Architecture
« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2021, 02:07:10 PM »
So it’s 50% for your top 6, not 33% if it were evenly divided with 4’s and 5’s. Are the other 3 mixed or all one or the other?


Did Arana state why he felt the 17th MUST be a par-3?


According to Alfonso Erhardt's biography of Arana -- which is very good, btw -- Arana was a big advocate of match play, where the 17th is usually a critical moment, and he thought that having a par-3 17th where it was more difficult to recover from a bad shot placed more pressure on the match.


That is somewhat at odds with Bernard Darwin's old line that "It is the duty of every good golf course to have a good 17th hole".  Typically on UK links the 17th is a difficult long par-4 or occasionally a par-5:  of the Open rota courses, I think only Royal Troon has a par-3 17th.


As to my own preference, I don't think I lean in either direction, and I would guess that if I tallied up the 17th holes on all of my courses, the % of par-3's would tend more toward randomness.  [Note that the random likelihood would be more like 1 in 4 of getting a par-3 or par-5, since there are more par-4's on 99% of courses.]  It's possible, though, that the panelists judging the course have a preference for a par-3 17th.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2021, 02:11:39 PM by Tom_Doak »

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back