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Mike_Trenham

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Re: USGA Course Ratings - Time for an update
« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2021, 10:40:17 PM »
If courses are rerated every four years why is the definition of a scratch golfer not reevaluated every four years?


What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.
Proud member of a Doak 3.

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USGA Course Ratings - Time for an update
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2021, 10:49:32 PM »
Carl,  while I am not a great defender of the USGA, your comment would be accurate for any system that tries to account for the myriad of factors that go into determining the difficulty of golf courses. Consistency in application is critical. The rater handbook provides detailed standards.  The issue is in training.  In Chicago, we have extensive training programs for new raters.  They are given exams and rating is done by teams with experienced raters teamed with newer raters so that there is an opportunity to learn from experience.  The goal is consistency.  I do not qualify as an expert rater, so this is not about me, but I have invited some cynics to observe ratings and invariably their attitudes change for the better after the experience.  I am not suggesting that your observations are incorrect, merely that they are less the result of the system and more a result of its implementation largely caused by inadequate training and/or lack of volunteers.

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USGA Course Ratings - Time for an update
« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2021, 09:55:52 PM »
Anyone who has played Whisper Rock will know a) they’ve lots of tour pros who are dues paying members and b) the pro shop keeps their handicaps based on competitive rounds. Remembering tour set up is probably 3 or 4 shots harder than daily set up the average WR tour pro is around a +6.5, many are +8.0. I wouldn’t be surprised if Rahm hasn’t touched +9.0.
FWIW Rahm is currently +6.9.


If courses are rerated every four years why is the definition of a scratch golfer not reevaluated every four years?

Courses must be re-rated every ten years. We aim to do ours once every five to six.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

John Chilver-Stainer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USGA Course Ratings - Time for an update
« Reply #28 on: May 01, 2021, 07:38:20 AM »
If courses are rerated every four years why is the definition of a scratch golfer not reevaluated every four years?


What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.


For me the obvious answer is because most Par 5's would have to be rerated as Par 4's meaning a large number of golf courses would fall under Par 70 - probably too demeaning for the prestige clubs and a clear indication the USGA & R&A misjudged the effect of the ever increasing length the ball can be hit.
The Rating System as it stands is only valid for average golfers and completely inadequate for scratch golfers.










A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USGA Course Ratings - Time for an update
« Reply #29 on: May 01, 2021, 11:09:47 AM »
Carl,  while I am not a great defender of the USGA, your comment would be accurate for any system that tries to account for the myriad of factors that go into determining the difficulty of golf courses. Consistency in application is critical. The rater handbook provides detailed standards.  The issue is in training.  In Chicago, we have extensive training programs for new raters.  They are given exams and rating is done by teams with experienced raters teamed with newer raters so that there is an opportunity to learn from experience.  The goal is consistency.  I do not qualify as an expert rater, so this is not about me, but I have invited some cynics to observe ratings and invariably their attitudes change for the better after the experience.  I am not suggesting that your observations are incorrect, merely that they are less the result of the system and more a result of its implementation largely caused by inadequate training and/or lack of volunteers.

It seems to me that this is the key point.  The goal is for raters to do the same thing every time they rate a course, so that the differences between tees on one course, or for ratings from one course to the other are consistent.  The entire purpose of the course rating system and the handicap system demands consistency from one course to the next, and from one golfer to the next, and constantly changing the standards works against that.


To whatever extent the 250 average is no longer accurate for a scratch golfer, I'm not sure I see why that is a pertinent problem.  The key part of the definition is that the player is able to play to a zero index on any rated golf course, and since that zero index is based on course differentials rather than par, why does it matter if the imaginary scratch golfer averages 285 instead of 250, especially given that the second part of that portion of the definition says "CAN reach a 470 yard hole in two shots at sea level" (my caps). 


This, of course, does NOT mean that the second shot ends up ON the green, much less that birdie is a result; Tour pros, with plus indexes of multiple strokes, hit approx. 2 out of 3 greens from that distance, so I think we could assume that the scratch golfer would be hitting the green and putting for birdie far less often.  So whether the second shot for the scratch golfer is from 220 (based on a 250 drive average) or from 185 (based on a 285 average drive) I think we could guess that, in either case, most of the time the scratch golfer has to hit a third shot before their first putt.


All of this seems like splitting hairs to no great end; the goal is still consistency of application, rather than constantly changing standards.

"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

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