Artificial Turf?

[Mark_Fine]

Why is golf holding out?  Virtually every other sport played on some kind of turf uses it is some way.  How long before greens,..., or at least tees make the switch? 

[Joe Hancock]

It has a lifespan, and I’ve heard there is no recycle option with it. Disposal/ replacement isn’t an attractive feature.

[Mark_Fine]

Joe,
Lifespan for golf use any shorter than for other sports?  Baseball, tennis, soccer, football, rugby, field hockey, lacrosse, ...

[Joe Hancock]

Joe,
Lifespan for golf use any shorter than for other sports?  Baseball, tennis, soccer, football, rugby, field hockey, lacrosse, ...

I don’t think it’s any shorter, but it doesn’t last forever in any application. Like anything plastic, UV degradation happens even if the surface isn’t being heavily used.

[Ira Fishman]

Mark,


Let’s hope never. Really never ever. I am having a nightmare just trying to picture Foxy or CPC 16 in plastic. Never ever.


Ira

[Tom_Doak]

I saw a par-3 course in Asia a couple of years ago that was all artificial turf:  tees, approaches and greens.


My feeling was similar to what Ira's would have been.  A big appeal of golf is that it is played in the natural environment [or it was, until maintenance went next-level crazy].  If you're going to go to artificial turf, why not just stay indoors and play on a simulator?

[Mark_Fine]

Ira,
Trust me I am not advocating it.  I won’t even hit off artificial turf on driving ranges but I have designed and built at least a half a dozen or more over the years and been asked on all but one to put down at least one section of artificial turf.  I did also design and build a three hole First Tee Facility and we did use artificial turf for the tees and greens.


Most of us don’t like it but we’ve used it.  I really hated carrying around my piece of artificial turf in Northern Ireland at Ballyliffin but it was right before the Irish Open and they didn’t want any divots. 


I just think it is only a matter of time.  They will come up with turf that can be easily replaced and recycled that looks and plays like real grass that requires little to no chemicals or water or maintenance and golfers will probably first hate it then eventually love it.  Some architect or well known course will lead in this area and it will happen.  Most other sports when through the same acceptance process. 

[Ira Fishman]

Never ever. Fake is fake. Plastic is plastic.


Ira

[Keith Phillips]

I'll take the other side.  As artificial turf improves and pressure on the water supply increases, it is inevitable that we adapt.  Not talking 16 at Cypress, but for many more humble courses this is a natural.  And by all means bring golf indoors if you can!

[Mark_Fine]

I remember when Forrest and I were doing a Master Plan for the two Griffith Park courses in LA.  Maybe Forrest will chime in with his thoughts as he is always thinking ahead about things.  Those courses were doing something like 90,000 rounds a year.  Can you imagine trying to keep grass on those tees!!  Many were mostly dirt.  You could easily see how artificial tees would serve a real purpose there.  We won’t talk about the condition of the greens.  What a tough job the super had there.  What would George Thomas think 

[Mark_Fine]

Ira,
I am sure you realize how many miles of plastic pipe are in almost every golf course between drainage pipe and irrigation etc.  I am just asking the question when will golf catch up as most every other sport played on turf is already there. 


Maybe architects need to put in there future wishes that their courses will never have artificial grass 

[Ira Fishman]

Mark,


My objection is not based on the environmental disaster that plastic represents although it is a disaster. It solely is based on how the game came to be. Let’s blanket Scotland in plastic. Brora would be just the same as it had been for 130 years, but tell the sheep and cows that fact. Btw, as you might know, I work in a sport where artificial turf is solely an economic choice that I and most players would be glad to reverse.


Ira

[Edward Glidewell]

I think any course that tried this would need to be in an area without many (or any) other options, because I think the vast majority of golfers (certainly me included) would avoid it in favor of something with real grass.


Put it anywhere with multiple options and I'd expect the daily number of rounds to decline precipitously. It would then become an example of a failed concept and other courses would be unlikely to try something similar for at least a few years.


I also think that environmentalists would be equally opposed (if not moreso) to blanketing a huge area with artificial turf as they are to the fertilizers and pesticides used on standard courses. It would likely have a significant detrimental effect on any area wildlife as well.

[John Emerson]

The amount of money spent on artificial turf can be more than natural surfaces, and it’s less safe especially for other athletics sports. I’d be willing to say that artificial turf everywhere will be the death of golf.


The problem is with expectations and the influencers, not the surface.  Inputs have skyrocketed...from green speeds to bunkers. Hell most tees stimp higher than greens from the the 70’s.  Instead of rolling back the balls we need to roll back these pristine expectations.  How long before fertilizer is banned?  Phosphorus is basically “banned” in several states now.  Pesticides have already been almost all out banned In the he eu. How long until they’re banned in the USA? Humans are the problem not the plants. 

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Foxfield at  Naamans Creek  in Garnet Valley, Pa ,close to the border with Delaware, had a 6 hole short course with artificial turf.


https://www.foxfield55plus.org/default.php



Also, Talamore, in Ambler, PA, had a tee with artificial turf as it was situate in the woods.


I'm not sure if these examples still exist as I no longer live in the area.

[Edward Glidewell]

Rivers Edge, a Palmer course in Shallotte, NC, has a couple of artificial turf tees on one of the par 3s. They're two tiny pieces of land connected to a causeway across the tidal marsh of the Shallotte River. They weren't always artificial turf, but I think they just could not keep grass alive there and eventually threw in the towel.

[Pete_Pittock]

Would artificial turf affect all golfers equally, or would one-subset gain an advantage?


Are artificial pitches for soccer, football, etc, horizontal, or is there a drainage slope?  If it is flat, would introducing slope create problems. If having slope is reasonable, how difficult would variable slope be to design?


If a golf course get a tax abatement because it is a greenspace, would using artificial surface negate the break?


How would replacement of grass by artificial surface affect carbon dioxide storage?


What is the difference in temperature retention?  Heat goes down into soil, but would probably remain on the surface with artificial turf.  Do you want to play on something which is too hot?


I played to some artificial surface greens about 5-8 years ago and would consistently have to chip back from 20 yards beyond the green. But that was probably to 1st or 2nd gen product.

[David Jones]

There is a short course in France, near to Geneva, called Jiva Hill. It’s a 2,000ish meter course with 6 par 3s and 3 par 4s. All the greens and fringes are artificial - they were put in by an American company, Southwest greens. According to their website Rickie Fowler endorsed them so they must be pretty good.


The course is part of a luxury golf hotel/spa, given the climate in the area it means they can offer golf whenever there’s not snow on the ground whereas other courses in the area are closed from November to March often.


I’ve played it a couple of times and the greens hold pretty well when you hit into them. However the surfaces are insanely fast, I’ve never seen anything like it.


Still, it’s a popular place among golf tragics on a freezing winter’s day when everything else is shut.

[Thomas Dai]

For normal courses -
Greens .... no.
Fairways ... no.
Tees .... yes!
18 times a round the ball is placed upon a tee-peg. The tee-peg might just as well be placed into a mat and the players feet located on the mat.
atb

[Phil Burr]

Great Chebeague Golf Club, located on an island near Portland, ME, has an artificial turf tee on hole #7 that actually sits on a dock in the bay.  It’s a nifty little nine-holer profiled by Anthony Pioppi in one of his books.

[Mark_Fine]

Tees seem to be the one and maybe first place artificial turf might gain some acceptance on the actual golf course (on certain high volume courses or in particular locations).  As I said earlier, even though I don’t care for them to practice off, they are widely accepted on driving ranges/practice areas.  Sooo many golfers these days do practice on artificial turf whether it be at these ranges, at places like Top Golf, on indoor simulators, on backyard putting and chipping greens,...it is only a matter of time till the turf migrates to the golf course itself.  I saw Ron Whitten did article and survey and only 2 of 20 architects predicted it would be used fully on a golf course. The others said no for all the reasons mentioned.  I believe innovation in the turf will continue.  Time will tell.

[Sean_A]

Mark,

Let’s hope never. Really never ever. I am having a nightmare just trying to picture Foxy or CPC 16 in plastic. Never ever.

Ira

+2. I want to play off natural surfaces. I don't mind if the surfaces are rough and ready, but I want them to be natural.

Ciao

[Mike Nuzzo]

I just think it is only a matter of time.  They will come up with turf that can be easily replaced and recycled that looks and plays like real grass that requires little to no chemicals or water or maintenance and golfers will probably first hate it then eventually love it.  Some architect or well known course will lead in this area and it will happen.  Most other sports when through the same acceptance process.

How is it only a matter of time for a manufacturer to come up with a magic carpet?
I've never compared football fields to golf courses - the revenue per square foot is $$$$$ different.


90 acres of turf could cost $50M today.
A magic golf ball would be easier to produce.

[Bret Lawrence]

Mark,


The reason why artificial turf works well with other sports is because the goal doesn’t move.  In golf, the hole moves daily or at least a few times a week.  One of the disadvantages of an artificial green is that you can’t move the hole around.


Right down the street from Griffith Park is a Par 3 nine hole course called Los Feliz.  I used to play Los Feliz a lot in college. The tees were tiny, the course received a lot of play and the course was overgrown, so they had no change of getting grass to grow on their tees. The mats they used as tees seemed more satisfactory than hitting off of dirt, but I think hitting off of real turf provides an even greater satisfaction to a greater number of golfers and that’s going to be hard to change. I think artificial turf still has a long way to go before golfers start paying for it to be installed on their courses.


Bret

[Mark_Fine]

Mike/Brett and others,
You all may be right. I think many of these issues will be solved as the technology advances.  Again, I am not advocating the whole golf course be artificial or any aspects for that matter.  I am just asking what people think.  They now have hybrid artificial turf that is part synthetic and part real grass which is supposed to be the best of both worlds. Is it for golf, who knows but it will continue to evolve.  The first artificial turfs for golf tees/greens were terrible.  Now you can find turf that looks, feels and plays very much like real grass.  You have to look close to see it is artificial.