[Tommy_Naccarato]

George, by my count of the FACTS--that is your sixth Home Run of the GAME. Keep it up and your going to make All Stars!  

[Michael Dugger]

Pat,

Should that be the case.....would you agree that what Doak has done at Pasatiempo WAS a sensitive restoration while what he did at SFCC WAS NOT.

Just want to make sure we are on the same page

[George Pazin]

Thanks, Tommy. I can even pass the new steroid test, too.

[Patrick_Mucci]

MDugger,

I played SFGC years ago, before any work was done, and haven't been back since, so I'm unqualified to comment on the work.

I've never played Pasatiempo so I'm unqualified to comment on that work as well.

I think some of the difficulty is actually seperating what the architect genuinely wanted to do, what the club wanted to do, and where the final results lie in the context of those two objectives.  Sometimes it is very difficult to seperate the interests of all parties, which is really needed if you're going to make an evaluation of the architects final work product.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Sean,

That's the logic of shoot first ask questions later. Strong arming and intimidation as the first retreat will get you nowhere.

Do you think George B. would have the same influence he now enjoys if he simply insulted every committee member that was contemplating an unsympathetic Raynor restoration?

In researching Fowler, do yourself a favor and open-up Geoff's Golden Age of Golf and read page 19.

It would seem that Del Paso CC is already in tune with my type of Strong arming and intimidation when it comes to judgments of their golf course some 82 years ago.

When you get done reading it, then I want you to post it for everyone to read. Just the first two sentences. That's all, just post the first two sentences.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Cliff Henry,

We believe Kyle's design is true to the spirit of Fowler's work...

What does this mean ?

How are changes to the golf course, even radical changes, defined in the context of the true spirit of Fowler's work ??

What is the "true spirit" of Fowler's work ??

In many cases, it's a cute catch phrase that disquises the disfiguration of a classic golf course.

In other cases, it misrepresents to the membership, the scope and nature of the work about to be done to their golf course.

I'm totally unfamiliar with your golf course, the subject of this discussion, but wouldn't adhering to the TRUE SPIRIT of Fowler's work, imply a dedicated, true restoration ?
Not an interpretive redesign in the guise of modernization  

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

When Tommy Naccarato, Tom MacWood and I agree on a issue, I'd exercise caution in taking a contrarian position

If TEPaul agrees, then you might as well just shut down this thread, because the party and issue is over.

[Michael Dugger]

MDugger,

I played SFGC years ago, before any work was done, and haven't been back since, so I'm unqualified to comment on the work.

I've never played Pasatiempo so I'm unqualified to comment on that work as well.

I think some of the difficulty is actually seperating what the architect genuinely wanted to do, what the club wanted to do, and where the final results lie in the context of those two objectives.  Sometimes it is very difficult to seperate the interests of all parties, which is really needed if you're going to make an evaluation of the architects final work product.

Pat,

I don't see where as whether or not you have played or have not played these courses matters when it comes to claslifying the work that was done there.  Once again you have taken something quite simple and made it difficult.  

But I don't really care.  That's fine, I'm use to it.  I just don't understand why you have to go and pull this type of crap when Tom Doak has told us STRAIGHT FROM THE HORSES MOUTH what he did and did not do at these two fine clubs.  

Perhaps you don't recall what he said, in that case I can understand why you wouldn't answer the question.

Just for kicks, let's say that in a hypothetical world Tom Doak reclaimed many of the bunkers at Pasatiempo working from aerials in the clubs archives.  Would you label this a sensitive restoration?

Then let's say that in this same hypothetical world Tom Doak tweaked a few of the greens at SFCC in the process of rebuilding them.  Would you label this type of work a restoration, a remodel or a sensitive restoration?

[SPDB]

Tommy - I'm not arguing facts here about the specifics of what is taking place at Del Paso, I never heard of the place until this thread. I have no idea what is going on at Del Paso, and never once have i claimed to, because its immaterial to the point I'm trying to make.

If you have facts, by all means please to disclose them to all of us. I merely made a comment about what I perceived to be an over-the-top comment you lodged at Cliffhenry. If you possess some facts about the plans then maybe those should come first followed by insulting remarks.

What gave you the impression that I am researching Fowler?
Certainly nothing I've said.

Pat - Perhaps I misunderstood the point you are trying to make because it is hidden behind a series of questions (rhetorical or not). Its very difficult to make a point of anything by merely asking a string of questions, and even tougher for the person to whom those questions are addressed. I get enough socratic method in class.

What you're saying about power v. right is perfectly understandable. Admittedly it makes more sense in a legal relationship, e.g. I have the power to punch a stranger, I don't have the right to.

I don't question anybody's right to question or criticize a committee's decision (not even Tommy). However a club delegates to a committee a certain amount of authority and discretion. So long as they are not defrauding anybody or acting unilaterally, I'd say their discretion is fairly limitless.

In the (extreme) example you gave, the superintendent is exceeding the scope of his employment. But membership/committee relationships don't fit neatly into an employer/employee examples.

Would you agree that the rank and file member who ignores debate/discussion about proposed renovation to a club has the right once its complete to object to it, even if the renovation conforms to exactly what came out of the committee?

I really don't want to discuss this too in depth b/c it really has very little bearing to my original point.

[SPDB]

Pat - I'm not sure you guys are all talking about the same thing. Whatever happened to your love affair with facts  . Seven-year itch?  

[Patrick_Mucci]

I don't see where as whether or not you have played or have not played these courses matters when it comes to claslifying the work that was done there.  Once again you have taken something quite simple and made it difficult.  

You must be kidding, you want me to make an evaluation of a golf course or work I've never seen

How can you classify work, IF YOU'VE NEVER SEEN IT

What does that practice do to one's credibility

But I don't really care.  That's fine, I'm use to it.  I just don't understand why you have to go and pull this type of crap when Tom Doak has told us STRAIGHT FROM THE HORSES MOUTH what he did and did not do at these two fine clubs.

I'm not prepared to take any architect's word as gospel, on a project that that architect was involved with.  I don't know if they're capable of providing an arms length view.
I think independent evaluation may be a more valid form of determination.

Perhaps you don't recall what he said, in that case I can understand why you wouldn't answer the question.

Just for kicks, let's say that in a hypothetical world Tom Doak reclaimed many of the bunkers at Pasatiempo working from aerials in the clubs archives.  Would you label this a sensitive restoration?

hypothetical questions and examples are a form of mental masturbation, and a complete waste of time

Then let's say that in this same hypothetical world Tom Doak tweaked a few of the greens at SFCC in the process of rebuilding them.  Would you label this type of work a restoration, a remodel or a sensitive restoration?

See my above comment regarding hypotheticals and mental masturbaton

You have to learn not to get so upset when people challenge your position, correct you or debate with you.

Unless of course, you feel that your positions are above reproach.

[Mike Hendren]

Cliff Henry,

We believe Kyle's design is true to the spirit of Fowler's work...

What does this mean ?

How are changes to the golf course, even radical changes, defined in the context of the true spirit of Fowler's work ??

What is the "true spirit" of Fowler's work ??

In many cases, it's a cute catch phrase that disquises the disfiguration of a classic golf course.

In other cases, it misrepresents to the membership, the scope and nature of the work about to be done to their golf course.

I'm totally unfamiliar with your golf course, the subject of this discussion, but wouldn't adhering to the TRUE SPIRIT of Fowler's work, imply a dedicated, true restoration ?
Not an interpretive redesign in the guise of modernization  

WELL STATED PATRICK!.

This post is brilliant and insightful and should be pulled up every time a club with a classic course considers putting a shovel in the ground.  

Regards,

Mike

[A_Clay_Man]

Forrest- Since I'm breathing air that's polluted so you Phoenicians can have power, I'd like to learn more, so I won't be so misguided. Of course, I am aware of your position on restorations and I disagree, but I think its more semantics.

I have seen the subtle differences that comes of Mr. Prichard's work and it reassures me, that it is the little details that make bigger things work. Do we disagree on that?   You are correct that I know little about the course but from what has been shared, here, I felt it safe to assume that there is probably plenty of Fowler left, and if not?,,,,what fun it would be to find.

I have golfed Crystal Springs and not until reading Pete's post did I recall that it was a Fowler. I can assure everyone that there were points along that course where the openness of the space is grand. The golfer is absolutely put in proper perspective to mother nature. The deceptions pretty cool, too.

Mindy- does that describe your course? or are there too many trees?

[Michael Dugger]

Pat,

I never asked you to make an evaluation of anybody's work, I think everyone BUT you understood the question and would answer it quite simply.  In a nutshell, I asked you to define the following:

1. What a 'sensitive' restoration is?
2. What a restoration is?
3. What a renovation is?

If you would kindly provide YOUR definition of the following, and provided we can TRUST what Tom Doak says that he did, I conclude we can deduce whether his work at Pasa and SFCC was 1, 2 or 3.

Quite frankly, however, I don't really care anymore.  You've once again exhausted my interest.  Not because I am beyond reproach, but because it's not worth engaging you in discussion because it always comes back around to a riddle wrapped inside an enigma.

To me whether Tom Doak is telling the truth or not is not the issue.  The question was based on the premise that what he says he did at Pasa and SFCC is what he indeed did.  If you want to debate whether he indeed did what he said he did that's another issue.  However, I choose not to engage in this sort of speculation ,choosing instead to simply believe what the man says.  I don't understand why you are so skeptical about this, although I do concur when it comes to the value of an independant evaluation.

Furthermore, I guess I choose not to split hairs like this because we have to remember we are talking about 100 year old golf courses.  Of course Doak didn't recreate the bunkers at Pasa to 100% of their original design.  That's impossible.  But it was the goal, was it not?  It is obvious that this isn't good enough for you, but it is for me.  

"Hypotheticals are mental masturbation,"

puh leez  

Tell that to the guy who invents things.  

[SPDB]

Neal - I'd be careful if I were you. Making reasonable points on this thread is done at your own peril. Are you sure you don't want to offer any speculation? self-serving assumptions? Preemptive judgments? After you have made all of those - insult somebody please? Anybody at all, it doesn't matter if its warranted or not.

[SPDB]

Tommy -
I haven't the vaguest idea of what you are getting at. I don't have the book (which I imagine disqualifies or discredits me from something). Please type them out for me, so we can discuss whatever point it is you are making.

What is it? Does it talk about knee-jerk insults?

[SPDB]

what's going on here? i've responded to two messages that have disappeared. Maybe they got sucked into the same black hole as everyone's common sense.

[Joel_Stewart]

I have golfed Crystal Springs and not until reading Pete's post did I recall that it was a Fowler. I can assure everyone that there were points along that course where the openness of the space is grand. The golfer is absolutely put in proper perspective to mother nature. The deceptions pretty cool, too.

I don't think there is one inch of Fowlers work left at Crystal Springs and very little at Burlingame.   Gib could comment on this which makes for a more interesting subject, Fowlers work possibly only existing at one or two course left in America.

Personaly I think this is one of the most informative threads on GCA in a while.  Real life example, lets invite Cliff and Mindy back.

By the way, Del Paso hosted the 1957 and 1976 US Womens Amateur and the 1982 Womens US Open won by Janet Alex.  Someone can get a bonus if they know where Janet Alex is today.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

See Sean, your even seeing things!  GO SEE KATZ!

Why don't you don't own Geoff Shackelford's Golden Age of Golf Design? One of the best books on classical architecture with excellent pictures of Pine Valley, MERION and others. It's what got this whole mumbo jumbo thing of destroying the White Faces in the first place.

[SPDB]

Everyone on this thread except for me should book daily sessions w/ Dr. Katz. Even Pat Mucci's has been brainwashed. After years of fighting the good fight against the factless, he's finally capitulated.  

[SPDB]

And I have no reason for not owning Geoff's book. I've definitely looked at it numerous times, have just never gotten around to buying it. I'll trade you The Good Doctor Returns   for your copy.

[Yancey_Beamer]

Mindy,
Fowler was the partner of Tom Simpson.Simpson concentrated on Europe.Fowler concentrated on Great Britain and the United States.Most of his time here was spent in California.Fowler and Pebble Beach professional Harold Sampson became friends and when Sampson went to Burlingame both remodeled that course.
Fowler returned to  England in the early 1920's.
He died on April 14,1941.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mdugger,

I find the term sensitive restoration as redundant.
It's either a restoration or it isn't.

Restore:    to bring back to or put back to a former or original
                state.

Renovate:  to restore to a former better state.

Sensitive:   Mdugger  

I don't know the extent of what Tom Doak says he did or didn't do, hence I'm not prepared to accept your view on the nature, scope and evaluation of his work.

In addition, even if I accept every word attributed to him, I would be remiss if I did not evaluate his work in the context of personal examination, and since I haven't seen it, I'm unqualified to comment.

Everybody has their own perspective of what they did or didn't do.  That doesn't mean their opinion is absolute.
That's what we have judges and juries for.

Perhaps my prior experiences have taught me to follow a fairly thorough discovery process prior to rendering an opinion.

SPDB,

You might be surprised by the FACTS I possess relative to Del Paso and the pending project.  Don't be so quick to disqualify me, or pack me off to Dr. Katz.  Remember, you don't know what I think or know, only what I post  

Tommy Naccarato,

Since Sean doesn't have the reference at his immediate disposal, why don't you post it for us,  

Thanks

[A_Clay_Man]

Joel- I didn't remember much till I put it together with the pictures of Eastward Ho. I have no idea what is left of Fowler at Crystal Springs but I feel the shot that sweeps down that hill (2nd or 3rd ?) best exemplifies what was memorable about that course. If it wasn't Fowler, it doesn't matter to me, but I still suspect as much. Pete?

[Forrest Richardson]

George says: "I do hope things go well at Del Paso, but I have to admit, pretty much anyone saying they intend to duplicate "the spirit" of someone else's work scares the heck out of me."

Yet, George also says the Fownes, creators of one of America's most teasured courses, apparently desired to duplicate the spirit of links courses being built across the sea. Thankfully George was not around in 1902-3...but certainly it is great having him around now.

I will also not dig deep into his hundreds of posts in which he applauds certain designers, designs and ideals...for doing so would only serve to point out that he truly does embrace the concept of the duplication of "the spirit" of someone else's work."

And, why not? I see this as a positive when appropriate.

Adam — I agree completely that it would be a blast to find and uncover Fowler's work. Am I missing something? Does any of the information we have suggest this is not the case at Del Paso?

Knowing Kyle I beleive his energy to accomplish such may far outlast even the most serious "Atlas-er" — and imagine this: Kyle also has the credentials and background in golf architecture, including a well-versed historical perspective.

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