[JohnVDB]

You won't find a bigger fan of Durness than yours truly.   But in all honesty to be in that neighborhood makes everything in life sweeter and renders one vulnerable to falling in love with any place to stick a tee in the ground.  Knowing a hot chocolate awaits at Cocoa Mountain renders objectivity impossible!   As for the golf course proper, the 4th is a tremendous 2-shotter that could hold its own anywhere.  The tumbling 8th and scenic 9th do not disappoint either.  The balance of the course is plenty good enough.  I've only played one course ranked below it on the list and The Eden is far superior to Durness, pond and all. 


Just my $0.02 late on a Friday.


Mike

I have to agree with Durness being a ton of fun and also with the Cocoa Mountain review.  I hope it reopens in Dornoch this year. 


I’d add 3 and 5 to the list of really cool holes.  As for its place in the rankings a. The Eden, I’d agree with your take, probably because Eden should be higher more than Durness should be lower.


Durness is a beast of a walk though.  My phone said I climbed 65 floors in two loops.

[Niall C]

Being a saddo with no social life due to lockdown I did a bit of an analysis of the top 100 list and this is what I came up with;


66% of the courses are links


72% are on the coast


42% are on the east side of the country


27% in the north


24% in the west


23% are proper inland


4% on one of the islands


Now looking through my copy of Robert Price (1989) he lists Scotland as having 425 courses. That number has changed a bit since then but not hugely. He doesn't quite split it up the same way I have but he puts the number of links courses at 80 or just under 19% of the total. So links are over represented on the list - no surprise there.


By my calculation, c. 40% of Scotland's courses are in the west and indeed c.20% of them are in the Glasgow area alone. None of the Glasgow courses make the list while only 24% on the 100 list are from the west. In contrast the north has c.17% of Scotlands courses yet has 27% of the courses on the list. Again not really a surprise but it does show (to this Weegie at least) that there is a large chunk of the country that tends to get overlooked.


If there isn't at least half a dozen courses in Glasgow that are better than some of the courses on this list then I'll eat my mashie niblick.


Niall   

[David Jones]

Being a saddo with no social life due to lockdown I did a bit of an analysis of the top 100 list and this is what I came up with;


66% of the courses are links


72% are on the coast


42% are on the east side of the country


27% in the north


24% in the west


23% are proper inland


4% on one of the islands


Now looking through my copy of Robert Price (1989) he lists Scotland as having 425 courses. That number has changed a bit since then but not hugely. He doesn't quite split it up the same way I have but he puts the number of links courses at 80 or just under 19% of the total. So links are over represented on the list - no surprise there.


By my calculation, c. 40% of Scotland's courses are in the west and indeed c.20% of them are in the Glasgow area alone. None of the Glasgow courses make the list while only 24% on the 100 list are from the west. In contrast the north has c.17% of Scotlands courses yet has 27% of the courses on the list. Again not really a surprise but it does show (to this Weegie at least) that there is a large chunk of the country that tends to get overlooked.


If there isn't at least half a dozen courses in Glasgow that are better than some of the courses on this list then I'll eat my mashie niblick.


Niall

Good work Niall!


I’m currently without a job for the first time in 20+ years so have been given myself a couple of projects to keep busy.


One of which has been to produce an old-school physical map of all the golf courses of Scotland. It’s off to print and will be available at all good bookshops soon (well, Amazon and my website!). I’m sure I’ve missed a few but there are 568 on there!


I was amazed at the sheer number of golf courses around the Glasgow area. As an East Lothian man it was quite a revelation. Indeed, I had to put an inset on the map to get them all in.


I also have a mother-in-law in Patrick who I should visit more so what are the 6 Glasgow courses that I should make sure I get to? I’ll play them before the year is out and report back here (lockdown allowing).

[Niall C]

David


There are some courses that have fallen off the list such as East Ren and Cawder as well as others such as Bonnyton, Ranfurly Castle and Kilmacolm that might not have been on it. I have good memories of Whitecraigs (the course, not the club) and then there's Pollok and Haggs Castle.


Somewhere on my laptop I have a essay that I started on courses in Glasgow area ie. 15 miles radius of Central Station, and if I remember correctly about 19 of them are either designed or redesigned by Braid. Chuck in some MacKenzie, a wee bit of Colt, quite a bit of Fernie as well as some Old Tom and you have a pretty decent design heritage.


Once we get by the lockdown restrictions give me a shout and I'll join you for a game.


Niall


ps. I think you meant Partick rather than Patrick

[Jeff Schley]

Curious for those that live there, is there an area of Scotland that has the "best" weather? Or is that an oxymoron?

[Brian_Ewen]

Now looking through my copy of Robert Price (1989) he lists Scotland as having 425 courses. That number has changed a bit since then but not hugely.

The number that is always bandied about is 560, but it must be less than that now.

[David Jones]

Thanks Niall. It should have been Partick not Patrick for sure 


I will make sure I get to some of those this year and will give you a shout, and if you do ever finish the essay please do share!!


Brian, I have 568 courses which are open and active in Scotland for the map. However I am absolutely stretching it to get that - it includes several short courses including the children’s courses at Gullane and North Berwick! The ‘real’ number is closer to 540 probably.

[Brian_Ewen]

Curious for those that live there, is there an area of Scotland that has the "best" weather? Or is that an oxymoron?

Well, I live on the East Coast, and every time I head to the West Coast, it rains.

[Sean_A]

You won't find a bigger fan of Durness than yours truly.   But in all honesty to be in that neighborhood makes everything in life sweeter and renders one vulnerable to falling in love with any place to stick a tee in the ground.  Knowing a hot chocolate awaits at Cocoa Mountain renders objectivity impossible!   As for the golf course proper, the 4th is a tremendous 2-shotter that could hold its own anywhere.  The tumbling 8th and scenic 9th do not disappoint either.  The balance of the course is plenty good enough.  I've only played one course ranked below it on the list and The Eden is far superior to Durness, pond and all. 


Just my $0.02 late on a Friday.


Mike

Hmmm..
I've never been much good at "ranking" based on some of what is in the top of this list,
but I do know after playing an 18 hole round in Fife, I drove 6 hours (at great risk to my mental and physical health) with two non golfers in the car, leaving behind for a night a house that was paid for for the week...to play Durness-then we returned the next day(via gairoch )to that same house in St. Andrews,....and it was well worth it.


Pretty sure I wouldn't do the same for the Eden course from a similar distance.
I thought the closest thing at Durness to a mundane hole was the first(but even that overlooked the spectacular bay and property Thomas mentioned.)


Some courses, especially 9 and 12 holers, probably belong in their own category, such as Tom's 31 Flavors, which contains some of my favorite courses in the world(and i would rank most of the 31 far higher than they are

Jeff

You are a psycho who loves forced marches.

David J

Golfworld has had very dubious rankings for as long as I have known the mag. A shift in the approach to re evaluate all the reasonable contenders will take 2 or 3 lists to settle down, assuming a consistent panel. NCG decided on the same approach a few years back and came up with some surprising results. Still, the best list I have seen by a country mile from any media outlet was the NCG Fun list. I wouldn't dismiss the outfit as not credible. There are a lot of guys on the panels who have played a ton of courses.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Strange you say that Sean, seeing as Chris Bertram ran the Golf World rankings immediately before moving to NCG.


The NCG fun list was indeed a bit of fun and for folks on this kind of forum, they wouldn’t be let down by 90% of the courses on it. But there were some silly entries that showed up the list’s subjectivity. And that’s before any quibble on the order of the courses. Still, it was a good diversion from the normal lists that follow very generic patterns.

[Sean_A]

Strange you say that Sean, seeing as Chris Bertram ran the Golf World rankings immediately before moving to NCG.

The NCG fun list was indeed a bit of fun and for folks on this kind of forum, they wouldn’t be let down by 90% of the courses on it. But there were some silly entries that showed up the list’s subjectivity. And that’s before any quibble on the order of the courses. Still, it was a good diversion from the normal lists that follow very generic patterns.

Ally

Going back 20 years I always thought Golf World lists were not very good. As I said, I am happy a new panel is in place which will give the lists a fresh look.

If I recall, Chris was the editor for the NCG Fun list. I would be interested to know the silly courses listed. I have no memory of such.

Ciao

[Clyde Johnson]

I've been giving Chris some (official and unofficial) guidance on these lists for the past 5+ years, when he was at Golf World, then at National Club Golfer and now at Today's Golfer. I like that he makes the effort to see little known courses - I think his tastes would suit the majority of participants on here. He is also willing to listen, and has a relatively diverse panel as a result.


[Perhaps that's why places like Dunaverty and Durness now make an appearance in the list. One day Iona might even make it!  ]





I think the reaction to this list only goes to emphasise there is little point in ranking anything other than the top-40 or so courses in Scotland, where it's actually worthwhile debating their relative architectural merits. Beyond that, there's a pretty diverse collection of far from perfect, but interesting courses that are hard to compare like-for-like - I'd much rather they found a different way to highlight them.




Jeff: I like Lanark, it's certainly one of the better inland courses in Scotland. A moorland, with a diverse, but not too arduous use of the terrain. The 11th - downhill with its green semi-blind over a burn and then shoulder - and the 14th - with its green sat deceptively on a plinth - are the pick of the holes. The par-three finishing green sits tight beyond a track/road too. The past head pro at Machrihanish recommended it to me, and I've found myself marrying someone from a couple of miles down the road - It's the course I would join south of Glasgow.




Niall: You are right, there is some pretty interesting golf around Glasgow. Kilmalcolm would get a crack at my top-100 list. There's some fine, brawny golf at East Renfrewshire too.


The Polloc Cricket Club's 6 Hole Winter Course and the Allander Course at Hilton Park are next on my hit-list...!




Sean: Shiskine is probably listed too high, but there are some golf shots that you would only ever get to play at Shiskine...and for that, I am glad it is drawing some attention. (I am pretty sure it was on the fringes of the GB&I Golf World list 20-30 years ago.) It would take me a while to get tired of playing there.


The Burnside Course at Carnoustie is an omission.




Simon: I was actually surprised by how restrained they were with their ranking of Dumbarnie. I expected the panel to fall for the fine playing conditions, controlled views and opening hype.


I've never been to Bruntsfield. Did they make many fundamental changes to the course, or was it just a tarting up of bunkers?

[Sean_A]

Clyde

Yep, Shiskine has a few fun shots in a lovely settting.
 
I agree, Chris strikes me as an open minded guy who enjoys all sorts of courses. I can say the same for Dan at NCG.

I also agree that a top 100 for Scotland is too much. I much prefer a top 50 with highlighted gems. In fact, I would always like to see highlighted gems as part of best of lists. Hence the reason I prefer the NCG Fun list to any others I have seen.

Ciao

[Paul Rudovsky]

Hi Tom


It is a new panel and editor as well as criteria. Maybe as a result I shouldn't have posted the changes from the last time (2 years) as that is getting more attention than the positions. I'll edit the piece later to put in the criteria used.

Thanks David - that explains a lot.

I don't know what to make of the fact that all of these rankings seem to be in upheaval, after 20-30 years of cruising along with some tinkering at the margins.  It's kind of a changing of the guard, but it's weird that it's all happening in a short window, with no real driving force I can think of.



To be fair, I don't know how true that is of the UK-based rankings. The American magazines have, whether you like their methodologies or not, taken rankings seriously for quite a long time. In the UK they have been much more fly-by-night. If they are a bit more serious now, that has to be a good thing.



I think that Chris Bertram who is doing these Golf World/Today's Golfer ranking is doing a really great job, he has huge integrity which goes a long way. I also like the top100golfcourses list so I think between the two the UK and country lists are in pretty good hands.


Re the US magazines, the Golf Digest world rankings desperately need an overhaul as they have are in a terrible state at the moment. Hopefully Derek Duncan will help make them a proper world ranking..


Golf magazine for the World lists leads the way. I think the only credible other list is the top100. However, I thought the 2013 Golf Course Architecture list was fantastic. Have you thought about doing a new version Adam?


David--

While I have not tracked the GB&I "lists" very closely, if Chris Bertram is really trying to upgrade their UK Lists, that explains the substantial changes...tough to make changes without making changes.  And not showing the changes is wrong IMO...like trying to re-write history, it never works. 

Regarding the US and World lists could not agree more with what you have said (same hold true with your Top100 lists comment which I inadvertently deleted in my quote above).

On another topic...# of courses in Scotland...numbers all over the place. R&A in 2019 published its "Golf Around the World"www.randa.org › media › files › gaw-2019-edition-3-hi





and they showed 614 courses at 568 facilities (so Turnberry would be 2 courses at 1 facility...or perhaps even 3 courses counting the kids course at the base of the hill below the hotel) totaling 8421 holes (which works out to 13.7 holes/course).  So assuming that all the courses in Scotland are either 18 or 9 holes (obviously not true but may be close to true) that means something like 292 9-holers and 322 18-holes.  I tried to get a copy of the list of the 614 showing # of holes per course but they would not release it.  There was also something a few weeks ago about a Scottish woman who said she had finished playing "all 556" of the courses in Scotland.  News article avail at https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/fife/1850866/best-scottish-golf-courses-fife-woman-who-played-all-556-scottish-reveals-top-10/   Of course (no pun intended), it all depends on the definition of "course" (for example does Turnberry have 2 or 3 courses?).  And there are likely a few personal courses in Scotland that are part of private estates and not open to anyone but the guests of the estate owner (I am told by a superb source there is one very close to the entrance to Gleneagles)...is that counted?  Need the list to find out.

[Thomas Dai]

11 new courses added and some pretty remote ones too. Implies a few visits by different reviewers which, in a year dominated by Covid and lockdowns is curious especially given Brians comment about seeing visitors on his Dunnottar Castle walks.
atb

[Simon Holt]

Simon: I was actually surprised by how restrained they were with their ranking of Dumbarnie. I expected the panel to fall for the fine playing conditions, controlled views and opening hype.


I've never been to Bruntsfield. Did they make many fundamental changes to the course, or was it just a tarting up of bunkers?

Clyde,


Cut and paste from the Bruntsfield website:



"In 2019, after a 2 year redevelopment by world renowned course architect Tom Mackenzie of Ebert & Mackenzie, the 'new layout' was opened with 6 new holes, 8 new greens and all bunkering renewed which now presents a consistent and fair but challenging course for golfers of all abilities."

I followed a friend in the final of the Lothians at BLGS a few years ago.  They we're well under way then with a serious amount of upheaval.  You could also see the work by landing at Edinburgh airport approaching from the East.  Pretty significant work and I have to guess not cheap.  I've not been been back to play post-renovation so I may try and get a game this summer.


Agree on Dumbarnie.  I think it's very fair where it has landed - a course that I think everyone would enjoy visiting, with cracking visuals for the Insta-golfers.


As a man who I've asked for golf course guidance before, what would be your top handful of picks that most of us wouldn't have seen?  For arguments sake, could you suggest 5 from number 51-100 on the OP list?


It would be good to hear other Scots' (or anyone) recommendations on the top handful courses you would recommend in that 51-100 bucket.  We all know about the big names in the top half.


Simon

[Ian Galbraith]

It would be good to hear other Scots' (or anyone) recommendations on the top handful courses you would recommend in that 51-100 bucket.  We all know about the big names in the top half.

Simon

OK Simon, I'll provide some more argument fodder  - here is my ranking of the courses in the 51-100 bracket that I have played. I simply ranked on which would I most like a return visit. Numbers are the original ranking in the full list.

55 Golspie
66 Jubilee
53 Ladybank
77 Eden
64 Monifieth
80 Glenbervie
82 The Glen
83 Longniddry
100 Royal Burgess
87 Bruntsfield
93 Auchterarder
52 Leven
88 Gullane Nr 3
98 Pitlochry
73 Fairmont Kittocks
70 The Dukes
60 Scotscraig
65 Durness
Ian

[David Jones]

On another topic...# of courses in Scotland...numbers all over the place. R&A in 2019 published its "Golf Around the World"www.randa.org › media › files › gaw-2019-edition-3-hi

and they showed 614 courses at 568 facilities (so Turnberry would be 2 courses at 1 facility...or perhaps even 3 courses counting the kids course at the base of the hill below the hotel) totaling 8421 holes (which works out to 13.7 holes/course).  So assuming that all the courses in Scotland are either 18 or 9 holes (obviously not true but may be close to true) that means something like 292 9-holers and 322 18-holes.  I tried to get a copy of the list of the 614 showing # of holes per course but they would not release it.  There was also something a few weeks ago about a Scottish woman who said she had finished playing "all 556" of the courses in Scotland.  Newsarticle avail at https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/fife/1850866/best-scottish-golf-courses-fife-woman-who-played-all-556-scottish-reveals-top-10/   Of course (no pun intended), it all depends on the definition of "course" (for example does Turnberry have 2 or 3 courses?).  And there are likely a few personal courses in Scotland that are part of private estates and not open to anyone but the guests of the estate owner (I am told by a superb source there is one very close to the entrance to Gleneagles)...is that counted?  Need the list to find out.

Some good info there Paul.


I had some great help from Alan Mcpherson. Alan set himself the objective of playing 'everywhere there are fixed tees and greens' in Scotland. His tally with that criteria of courses he has played is 674. However, some of these are now defunct and some are so private there would be no real point in putting them on a map intended for helping people plan a trip.


As you say, there are also all kind of edge cases - Asta in Shetland can be played clockwise and counterclockise, Muckhart has 27 holes that could make three different courses. Is that 2 courses or 5?


I've just checked and I've included 569 made up of 386 18 holers and 183 <18 holes.


The unusual ones are -


Murrayshall Lyndenoch (10)
Bishopshire (10)
Gogarburn (12)
Shiskine (12)
Port Bannatyne (13)


I'm sure I will have missed some so edition 2 will no doubt need some edits!

[Matt MacIver]

I love Turnberry and have played five of the listed top 10. But it disappoints me to see TB as #2 - I hope / need the five I haven’t played are better / more interesting, or else there is no need to visit.

[David_Tepper]

Anyone think Reay should be in the Top 100?

[Niall C]

Thanks Niall. It should have been Partick not Patrick for sure 


I will make sure I get to some of those this year and will give you a shout, and if you do ever finish the essay please do share!!


Brian, I have 568 courses which are open and active in Scotland for the map. However I am absolutely stretching it to get that - it includes several short courses including the children’s courses at Gullane and North Berwick! The ‘real’ number is closer to 540 probably.

David (and Brian),


I wouldn't argue regarding the total numbers. My understanding was that it was in the mid 500's but Robert Prices book was all I had to hand. I'd be very surprised if over a hundred courses were built between 1989 and now which suggests he maybe missed out some courses which would be a surprise for such an analytical book.


Niall

[Paul Rudovsky]

A note about all courses on any Best in Scotland list rated say 51-100.  Statistically, we are dealing with courses whose ratings would be distributed in what would be called a "normal bell shaped curve" .  So for example...if you weighed 100,000 adult males you would find the a very small % of those 100,000 weigh over 250 pounds or less than 120 pounds...and a whole lot of them with between 160 and 210 points.  Same thing with IQ...give 100,000 adults an IQ test and very very few will have IQ's below 75 or above 130...lots of folks with IQ's between 85 and 120.


So the courses rated 1-10 in Scotland will tend to have relatively wide differences between their average ratings (by multiple panelists)...the differences in average ratings with courses rated 11-25 in Scotland will be much more narrow and the differences in the 51-75 group and 76-100 group get much much smaller as the ratings start to really get "bunched up".  The result of all of this in a statistical (or "numbers") sense is that as you move down the ratings list toward or into the 76-100 group, you will always see much more volatility in the results from one list to the next one done say 2 years later.  So a course can jump up from almost no place to a much higher # because a single (or a few  panelists) hit it open perfect days and played well...or were in good mood (yes...these things can affect anyone's opinion about anything...even jurors in a trial). 


By the way at the other end of the scale is the history of #1's and the history of Pine Valley's ratings.  My spreadsheet shows a total of 49 World "Top" listings that identified a #1 (this excludes 4 listings that created an alphabetical list of 12 or 15 courses with the highest rating).  Of these 49, Pine Valley was #1 29 times, #2 13 times, 3# 4 times, #4 2 times, and not included once (Ran's 147 Custodians).  Looking another way, of the 20 times PVGC was not #1, Cypress Pt took the top position 14 times, TOC twice, and RM-W, Muirfield, RCD, and ANGC once each.  That is very very stable stable and low low volatility!!


In other words, from a statistical sense...all this posting and chatter about courses rated 51-100 in Scotland may be "much ado about nothing" to quote a long time ago English golfer.  It also may be the natural chatter that happens about ratings...almost all golfers (especially male golfers) have egos...and the positions of their clubs on these list impact their egos are therefore often taken seriously (it also may affect the ability of  club to attract new members).  They are important...and usually are given more weight by golfers whose clubs are highly rated (no surprise there, or vice versa).  IMHO...ratings are and will always be imperfect, BUT, they can be improved and are much better than simply using "adjectives" (great, wonderful, spectacular, fun, testing, etc.) which have very little septic meaning.


End of Speech (at least for now)

[Ally Mcintosh]

That’s why we shouldn’t go beyond Top-50 in either Scotland or Ireland.


For magazines who love the sound of Top-100, just include a second block of 50 that aren’t numerically ordered.


England can manage a Top-100 with their 2,000

[Niall C]

Ally, Sean and others, I respectfully disagree. It's the second half of the top 100 list that is interesting. We all know what the top 10 or top 20 is going to be and we can quibble about the particular order but it's mostly all the usual championship links with maybe a shooting star/flavour of the moment thrown in like NB or RD.


The bottom half is much more interesting because it is a much wider variety of courses and a wider range in terms of quality. Of course, much of the difference is subjective because of the variety. It's like trying to compare apples to oranges and that is where I think the interest is.


Niall

[Ally Mcintosh]

Niall,


Admittedly Scotland has more depth of interesting golf but I know from a lot of experience in Ireland that the 2nd 50 is just an exercise in random number generation.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()