Range Finders and Visual Uncertainty

[Troy Miller]

The introduction of range finders in the professional game comes at what I consider to be one of the most visually intimidating courses.


I am all for increased pace of play but tend to agree with Byeong Hun An on whether this will have an effect on the pace of the pros.


It does bring into question the element of uncertainty that is immediately lost when a player is able to process every critical dimension in a matter of seconds.


I remember taking a high school team of very good players (including Kyle Berkshire) to Tobacco Road, and watching each of them collect a handful of points with their rangefinders and then fearless take on angles and shots that at first glance may not have seems possible.


I fear some of the same mentality will occur at Ocean, where in the lack of wind, the visuals play a leading role in the course.


Pete’s belief that you can not physically challenge the pros and still make the course playable for ‘John Q Public’ and instead must make them uncomfortable mentally is on full display at OC, especially over the last two decades of what might be perceived as ‘softening’.


So, I’m curious to hear what other courses you think a range finder would have an impact on the mental comfort level of the world’s best players?

[Tommy Williamsen]

I think I am of two minds. I am glad payers on the TOUR won't be using them only PGA sponsored events. Most TOUR players know the distance because of their caddies hard work. Will it speed up play? Probably not. I think where it will help is knowing exactly how far a bunker, water, or a tree is. They can play with impunity.

[JESII]

Tommy, don't you think this will carry over to the Tour within a year or two? Can't see any reason it will not.


I also think it cannot speed up play at the Tour level. These guys already have incredibly detailed yardage books, this just gives them more information to work through. I don't think pace of play is actually a concern on Tour so no worries there...


I'm bummed though. While the player has the right to know the yardage, this absolutely puts a bullet through the notion of judging anything for yourself.


I wonder what was the impetus...are we going to see the PGA Championships, Presented by Bushnell?

[Pat Burke]

The yardage books Mark Long makes in tour have more of the information players want than a laser can provide


The lasers however will help in situations far off line or when angles (for yardage purposes) are difficult to figure.


The accuracy of the books has IMO made the caddies lives a lot easier in practice rounds.
The amount of data, accuracy, and options for layups, tee shots etc allow a player to play a practice round with virtually all the i formation ready to go.  It’s really amazing
While I understand many do not like this, as a player, I would gather all the same information in practice rounds and have it for tournament rounds anyway.  These books allow players to focus on how to play shots and holes for management during the event.

[size=78%]I don’t believe the lasers should slow things anymore than it already (sadly) is.  In fact, it could help in some situations when finding markers is difficult [/size]




 

[Pete_Pittock]

Speeding up play is not possible until the size of the field is reduced to the point where there is no wait at the turn, or until everyone tees off at the same hole. [size=78%]B[/size][/size]ased on the speed of play I saw in college golf (which allows rangefinders), it would have minimal impact on pace.[size=78%]

[Jerry Kluger]

Play will speed up at the upper levels of golf when they are put on a clock and they realize that they can actually begin looking at all the relevant factors before it is their turn to play.  Just watching DJ and his brother size up a putt is painful to watch, granted, he does go pretty quickly once he has taken forever looking it over. How about the discussions on a par 3 on the PGA Tour where it seems they have not even thought about the shot before it is their turn to play. I see this happening with better plays at my home course who take much longer to play than most other players.

[Carl Rogers]

The speed of play problem can only be remedied by a shot clock and then penalty shots.

[Thomas Dai]

Seems like a door has been slightly opened and a foot inserted into the opening. Any sponsorship from rangefinder manufacturers involved?
I wonder if anyone at the PGA or wherever bothered to ask the opinions of professional tour caddies as to whether such a move would or wouldn’t speed up play prior to making such an announcement?
Atb

[JohnVDB]

As Peter P said, as long as large field sizes with split tees are used you can’t speed things up much.  Everyone is waiting on everyone else.  There is no incentive for the first group to play faster when they know they’ll just have to wait at the turn.


Even on the weekends, the pace won’t change much as most of the time wasted is on the greens, not in the fairway. 

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I'm bummed though. While the player has the right to know the yardage, this absolutely puts a bullet through the notion of judging anything for yourself.

Nobody was judging anything for themselves. They had all the yardages. More than you can get with a laser.

Perhaps the only thing this does is help the PGA pros playing as they often don't have pro jocks on the bag. And it'll speed up play when players get way off line.

[Pete_Pittock]

I'm bummed though. While the player has the right to know the yardage, this absolutely puts a bullet through the notion of judging anything for yourself.

Nobody was judging anything for themselves. They had all the yardages. More than you can get with a laser.

Perhaps the only thing this does is help the PGA pros playing as they often don't have pro jocks on the bag. And it'll speed up play when players get way off line.

Once upon a time I filled out a 3x5 card to give me "exact" yardages at 10 yard intervals, both towards the hole and from centerline, good to my effective limit.

[Peter Pallotta]

I was just yesterday reading some stats compiled by Arccos, the makers of golf grips with embedded sensors. According to them (ie data from golfers using the arccos grips): the average 20 handicapper pulls his 3 hybrid for shots of 220 yards, but those same golfers actually end up hitting those shots an average of only 163 yards! I knew there'd be a disparity (between the real and the imagined), but I never imagined it to be that much!

Which is to say: the golfers (pros) who need range finders least will benefit the most, while those who will use them the most (average 20 handicapper) won't likely benefit in the least!

[jeffwarne]

Having watched Jordan Speith at Carnoustie have his his caddy walk off EVERY SINGLE yardage when he was deep off line on just about every hole, I think it will help to even out the flow.
They continued to fall back, well out of position, even when on the clock.Players like that feel like the clock doesn't start until the get what they believe they are entitled to. He was told to play away repeatedly by the official. I truly have never seen anything like that so many times.

Probably not overall any faster, but it will be less frustrating for those in the group when you get someone who feels entitled to the exact yardage when there are no markers anywhere near the player.
Being 50 yards off line should occasionally hurt a little-and sometimes you should just be forced to play a ball back into play when you don't have enough information due to time constraints-lazers will at least help the guy who is somewhat aware of others in his group(it will save him some uncertainty)
It will also help the entitled to play faster-and be less frustrating for everyone.

[Pete_Pittock]

I was just yesterday reading some stats compiled by Arccos, the makers of golf grips with embedded sensors. According to them (ie data from golfers using the arccos grips): the average 20 handicapper pulls his 3 hybrid for shots of 220 yards, but those same golfers actually end up hitting those shots an average of only 163 yards! I knew there'd be a disparity (between the real and the imagined), but I never imagined it to be that much!

Which is to say: the golfers (pros) who need range finders least will benefit the most, while those who will use them the most (average 20 handicapper) won't likely benefit in the least!

It might be a fact that they pull a  hybrid for a 220 yard shot, and only average 163. I don't think there is a big universe of 20 handicap golfers that can hit that hybrid 220. Many times they are just trying to advance the ball.

[John Kavanaugh]

Not a doubt in my mind that someone will use a range finder with putter in hand.

[Peter Flory]

Same guys who pace off their putts currently. 

[Pete_Pittock]

Same guys who pace off their putts currently.

A couple of years ago I was playing with a stranger who paced his putts. As the group in front receded from view I lasered one and told him. The rest of the day was not pleasant, and was even slower.

[Mike_Clayton]

I caddied a small tournament in Australia a couple of weeks ago where we had both rangefinders and a quality book. Not once  in 72 holes was the book yardage the same as the rangefinder.
One thing rangefinders don't do is speed up play. For a start, how can it when you have to wait until the group ahead puts the flag in before you even get a number?

[Sean_A]

Having watched Jordan Speith at Carnoustie have his his caddy walk off EVERY SINGLE yardage when he was deep off line on just about every hole, I think it will help to even out the flow.
They continued to fall back, well out of position, even when on the clock.Players like that feel like the clock doesn't start until the get what they believe they are entitled to. He was told to play away repeatedly by the official. I truly have never seen anything like that so many times.

Probably not overall any faster, but it will be less frustrating for those in the group when you get someone who feels entitled to the exact yardage when there are no markers anywhere near the player.
Being 50 yards off line should occasionally hurt a little-and sometimes you should just be forced to play a ball back into play when you don't have enough information due to time constraints-lazers will at least help the guy who is somewhat aware of others in his group(it will save him some uncertainty)
It will also help the entitled to play faster-and be less frustrating for everyone.

The Spieth incident was disgraceful. Regular players layup all the time because of lack of info/knowledge.

I don't like the idea yardage guns full stop.

Ciao

[Kyle Harris]

While blind shots may be blind to golfers only once. They are blind to lasers every time.

[jeffwarne]

Having watched Jordan Speith at Carnoustie have his his caddy walk off EVERY SINGLE yardage when he was deep off line on just about every hole, I think it will help to even out the flow.
They continued to fall back, well out of position, even when on the clock.Players like that feel like the clock doesn't start until the get what they believe they are entitled to. He was told to play away repeatedly by the official. I truly have never seen anything like that so many times.

Probably not overall any faster, but it will be less frustrating for those in the group when you get someone who feels entitled to the exact yardage when there are no markers anywhere near the player.
Being 50 yards off line should occasionally hurt a little-and sometimes you should just be forced to play a ball back into play when you don't have enough information due to time constraints-lazers will at least help the guy who is somewhat aware of others in his group(it will save him some uncertainty)
It will also help the entitled to play faster-and be less frustrating for everyone.

The Spieth incident was disgraceful. Regular players layup all the time because of lack of info/knowledge.

I don't like the idea yardage guns full stop.

Ciao

Yes it was-the one involving him and Kooch where he won.
But I was not referring to one incident.


I was referencing Carnoustie, where he didn't win-I was there. Spieth was in the gallery EVERY SINGLE hole and having his caddy walk all the way to the green and back was brutal, and quite off putting to his playing partners.
They're going to get the information anyway(officials are inept and loathe to call a penalty on a popular player like Spieth).


I say-keep the guns(cuz they're getting the info out of a book anyway) and ban the green reading books.


Or ban both guns and books of all kinds-and use the clock on every shot(which ain't gonna happen-Spieth's caddy is still walking toward the green after 45 seconds)

[Erik J. Barzeski]

One thing rangefinders don't do is speed up play. For a start, how can it when you have to wait until the group ahead puts the flag in before you even get a number?

I laser people on the green all the time. It won't be the exact yardage, but you can tell if they're standing near the front of the green or by a bunker lip or something to confirm some numbers, or at least get in the ballpark. Then laser the flag when it's in, adjust by, say, three yards, and go.

[Thomas Dai]

Let them us these simple front-middle-back finders and have a rule that caddies can walk ahead of the ball except on the green??
atb



PS - I believe that the PGA Tour have said today that they don't envisage permitting rangefinders to be used in the "foreseeable future".

[Tim Martin]

Let them us these simple front-middle-back finders and have a rule that caddies can walk ahead of the ball except on the green??
atb



PS - I believe that the PGA Tour have said today that they don't envisage permitting rangefinders to be used in the "foreseeable future".

The knock will be that the above gadget is not precise enough for PGA players.

[John Kavanaugh]

I wasn’t happy when my caddie at Pinehurst #2 would only give me distances from his watch GPS. The one course in the world where 3 yds makes a difference.


He was an inexperienced kid so it’s not like the professional gui who just knows.