Fescue On Rich Soils

[SL_Solow]

There is a significant trend toward replacing typical rough with fescue.  It requires less maintenance thus presenting an economic benefit and many of us appreciate the look of the taller grasses as juxtaposed against the remainder of the course.  Those of us who have been exposed to this type of rough on links land appreciate the vagaries of the lies that can be found in what is normally irregular and wispy growth.  Where I live in the Midwest USA, the wispy nature of the growth seems to disappear and instead a thick stand invariably results.  Even when one can find a ball it is next to impossible to play it so that fescue areas often have the same practical effect as water filled penalty areas.  Even when they are planted well off line, as we all know, nothing is really out of play.  Has any one had a different experience? Can anything be done to achieve a thinner growth? We have reduced seeding rates dramatically and we never fertilize after the plants are established.  Must we either forego the look and savings or simply accept the penal nature of this growth and move it as far off line as possible?

[Tom_Doak]

Shel:


It would probably be better to forego the "wispy fescue" look on heavier soils, because as you correctly summarize, it seldom turns out wispy.  But if you want to go that way anyway, the way to do it is by aggressively trying to make the soils less fertile before you plant it, and by making sure the irrigation comes nowhere near it.

[SL_Solow]

Tom,  I have reached a similar conclusion.  Convincing a membership to take the time and trouble to modify the soil is an interesting problem

[Jim Sherma]

Generally I think that there is too much of this in a lot of modern architecture, including post tree removal restorvations. Lost ball gunch stuff can make for a very unfun day if it is not used in small doses. Too many examples of having this on both sides of the fairway are lauded due to the aesthetics and texture the different grasses add. However, from a playing perspective, the same holes with out of bounds or water on both sides would not be as loved. Maybe the way we interpret the adage that you can grow grass or trees is wrong. The committees that traded unmanageable lost ball native stuff for shade and playable recovery shots might not have been the heathens many take them for.

[SL_Solow]

Jim,  I can't agree that this is a justification for overplanting of trees.  Note that I said overplanting but, in my experience, that is the typical result when committees decide to fill up spaces.

[PCCraig]

Shelly -


Ask Jeff Mingay to put your Super in touch with the Super at Town & Country, Bill Larson. Bill is about as good as it gets at getting quality "fescue" in the midwest that I have seen.


As noted above, for best results where balls are more likely to land in the native area, it makes sense to strip the soil and replace with sand, etc. to make less fertile.

[SL_Solow]

Pat,  Thanks. Interesting

[Tom Bacsanyi]

Irrigation is the biggest thing as mentioned. You have to make sure that literally zero water from the irrigation system hits these zones. You also have to make sure that literally zero fertilizer hits these zones (A lot of places bulk spread granulars via a tractor and the shit goes everywhere). Just a little overthrow of granular plus a sprinkler that's out of adjustment or wind affected and those areas quickly turn unruly. It can be especially difficult on the low sides of holes, as surface draining from rain events into these areas can undo a careful irrigation/fertility regime.


Ideally they are best for high and dry areas, and sandy soils. But most sites lack those features. They are likely just as expensive to maintain as mowed rough if we're being honest.

[Jason Topp]

The only places I have seen it done successfully is by adding something like a foot of sand.   Not practical in nearly every situation. 


I think the solution is to mow it. 

[Bernie Bell]

Great for drone shots and video.  Not great for golf.

[Jim Sherma]

+1

Great for drone shots and video.  Not great for golf.

[Adrian_Stiff]

You could strip the topsoil and then seed directly into the subsoil if the fertility is strong. The title of the thread says it all.


Fescue likes impoverish soil so fertility and water need to be low.

[John Emerson]

There is a significant trend toward replacing typical rough with fescue.  It requires less maintenance thus presenting an economic benefit and many of us appreciate the look of the taller grasses as juxtaposed against the remainder of the course.  Those of us who have been exposed to this type of rough on links land appreciate the vagaries of the lies that can be found in what is normally irregular and wispy growth.  Where I live in the Midwest USA, the wispy nature of the growth seems to disappear and instead a thick stand invariably results.  Even when one can find a ball it is next to impossible to play it so that fescue areas often have the same practical effect as water filled penalty areas.  Even when they are planted well off line, as we all know, nothing is really out of play.  Has any one had a different experience? Can anything be done to achieve a thinner growth? We have reduced seeding rates dramatically and we never fertilize after the plants are established.  Must we either forego the look and savings or simply accept the penal nature of this growth and move it as far off line as possible?

When people say “fescue” please specify which one.  This is the single most important factor on how it plays and looks.  Fine fescue is the ONLY species of grasses that should be planted for long rough areas.  Tall fescue, ryegrass, or Ky bluegrass are all very poor  options.  I’d be willing to bet the fescue you are referring to is not fine fescue and it’s some mix of any of three I suggest not to plant.


As long as the area doesn’t have supplemental fertilizers or water...and I mean none, then most seasons it will play pretty well. 

[SL_Solow]

I appreciate all of the great advice.  I am somewhat dubious about the choice of fescue as a cause even though it seems to make sense.  Since the issue appears to be universal in our area, one would think that some super would have tried to plant only fine fescue.  Lots of very good professionals around here.

[PCCraig]

You could also be very "woke" and suggest wall-to-wall fairways, Shelly! 

[Kalen Braley]

I'm curious, how does the fescue on links courses in the UK stay manageable given they gets lots of rain, combined with relatively cool temps year round so it presumably stays damp longer?

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

The big question is what is fescue? The next is what do you want it to look and play like.

All the solutions above help but ultimately it comes down to the grass seeded. The biggest issue with fescue "native" areas is that they are seeded to be a sod ie have structure and therefore creeping fescues (chewings and creeping red) are used. The issue is with these, is once they establish they get dense and since they are not regularly mown (or maintained) they grow thatchy and lay over and are generally thick to the point where they swallow balls and if you are fortunate enough to find your ball, they'll snag your club.

As mentioned above, rich soils, fertilizer and water all compound this by feeding the plants and making them healthier so they grow better. So in most cases where the fescues become unplayable or don't look whispy, it's due to the areas being seeded with these species. Creeping red and chewings make sense on fine turf where the ultimate goal is a dense surface (although maintaining them is a whole other discussion).

The best way to have successful fescue "native" areas is to seed them with the true bunch type (whispy) fescues - Sheeps, HArd and Blue fescues. These do not creep and each one is an individual plant. The issue here is they do not create a sod or a dense turf so there is possibility that a ball may land on soil. Over time (many years) they will fill in but they still will not create a sod. The easiest way to describe the difference would be using a sod cutter - with the creeping varities you can cut the sod and lift it, whereas as soon as a bunch type is cut it will just fall apart as you try to roll it up. For soil stability reasons and to create a sod all the seed mixtures have a creeping variety in them (even if it's at a low percentage) but in time the creeping variety takes over an ultimately dominates. The creeping varities also grow in quicker which is why they are specced. Some architects like seeding the roughs with fine fescues so they can adjust the rough/native lines as needed and this necesitates a sod, so it is difficult to avoid the issues later.

When we built LedgeRock that was the number one request and 14 years later overall the fescues are playing as they should although there are still some problem areas where there is no way to avoid them getting hit with water (and sometimes fertilizer). I also added little bluestem and annual rye to the mix at LedgeRock. The rye was to provide quick establishment to get the areas stabilised but after the first year it died off. The bluestem was to make it look a little more native and add variety. It is an extremely slow growing turf but the results are great. The fescues grow in the spring and we mow them after they drop their seed heads (The point where they lose their whispyness) and then the bluestems take over providing a nice red/brown color for the fall. I know the bluestems are frowned upon for some reason (they can get really long maybe) but used correctly they are a great addition to "native" areas as they are also bunch type.

Lastly these areas are not maintenance free - the only real savings are not mowing them frequently, but in most cases they need to be mowed 2-3 times a year and sprayed for weeds (including other turfgrasses). Depending on the property this is easier said than done, especially if the terrain is hilly. If timed correctly some of the other grass eliminating herbicides can thin the fescues a little if the timing is done right and one of the plant growth regulators can thin them a little also (although I haven't had a lot of success with that method). Flail mowing and burning in the late fall can also help with getting rid of weeds and helping keeping them thin for the following season. Lastly I have heard that spreading rock salt can help thin the fescues out also - which makes sense as turf plants do not like sodium.

Shelling them out and adding sand will help in the short to mid term but eventually they will still get thick. Meaning the best method is is to seed them only with bunch type fescues (and live with soil voids that may result from that), and then keep up with the ongoing maintenance to keep them as they are intended.

[SL_Solow]

Alan thanks.  Much to think about

[Joe Melchiors]

One of our big problems is, as mentioned, irrigation, particularly where the fescue is downwind (prevailing).  We have fescue on pretty much every hole, and one side is often very playable while the other is a lost ball 6 inches in from June to September...  Doesn't help that it's almost always windy here in the midwest.

[Buck Wolter]

Roundup?

[Joe Melchiors]

I guess a related question for potential solutions... 


With the rich soil here so often present here in the midwest, often times it seems if the fescue isn't growing thick, something else probably is.  What are potential methods for limiting, but not eliminating, growth where the soil is so good?  There are years where even in the places where we have no overspray from fertilizer and irrigation that the 'fescue areas' are anything but wispy just due to rainfall.


-Joe

[Mike_Trenham]

I am hearing of a new chemical called “Native Clean” that has provided significant improvements at a few local clubs. 


What are the industry experts on here hearing about this product?  Thanks.

[Tom_Doak]

One of our big problems is, as mentioned, irrigation, particularly where the fescue is downwind (prevailing).  We have fescue on pretty much every hole, and one side is often very playable while the other is a lost ball 6 inches in from June to September...  Doesn't help that it's almost always windy here in the midwest.

Until it's time for a new irrigation system, maybe you should match the mowing lines to the current system better, and just mow the rough wider on the side that gets too much water.


So often people see mowing lines as architecture that they fail to consider the practical solution.  For me, keeping the playability right is job one.

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

I am hearing of a new chemical called “Native Clean” that has provided significant improvements at a few local clubs. 


What are the industry experts on here hearing about this product?  Thanks.

Mike, we were a trail site for the product before it was launched. It performed well and I believe it is priced well within the market. It’s sort of a catch all product for natives whereas before that I had to use different products in different areas.


IIRC it is only a broadleaf control that takes care of what’s normally considered a weed but it can be used in combination with products like Segment or Fusilade which control grassy weeds (ie the true native grasses) which encroach on the areas also and need to be removed to keep the areas thin and playable.

[jeffwarne]

When I worked at Atlantic, they did a tremendous amount of work on the fescue as Atlantic is located on farmland.
Low maintenance is not the word I would use.
Bobby Ranum, who is as good as they get, eventually figured it out, but to was quite a process involving much of the work described here by posters.
The problem is that "Fescue" is their logo, and the name of their Member-Guest so eliminating it was not an option